+379
Frontier246
I think Akiyama's main priority is ensuring he and Nao make it to the end one way or another so even if he has a "team" he's not going to 100% trust them and will probably use them to ensure he and Nao are the minority each round.
確かに秋山はナオと一緒に最後まで残ることを最優先にしてそうだよね。たとえチーム組んでも完全には信用せず、毎ラウンドで自分たちが少数派になるよう利用すると思う。普通くん+33
Emi_Ibarazakiii
原文
Yeah I wrote a comment on this above, but it'll be hard to achieve that;
If he wants to ensure they both make round 2, they need to vote the same round 1 (which is a risk, both could be eliminated), and if only 1 makes it to round 2, then they need to correctly predict which side will be the minority to ensure that this person will be on this side, twice!
So I guess strategy or not, they WILL be forced to play the 'guess the minority' game! Otherwise a rando from their team could win instead.
まあ、上でも書いたけどそれは難しいだろうな。
ラウンド1で同じ投票をして2人揃ってラウンド2に進むのはリスクが高いし、もし片方だけ進んだ場合、その人がマイノリティ側になるのを2回連続で当てなきゃいけない。
結局、戦略があろうとなかろうと、彼らは「少数派当てゲーム」を強いられるんだよ。そうしないとチームの他人に勝ちを持ってかれるからな。ドライおじ+15
JJVM99
原文
Based on the current plan there is no guarantee that they would make it instead of the others it would come down to luck. Akiyama could manipulate the game so that he and Nao are always on the team that will end up as the minority but that would require his entire team to be fine with the answer he has asked them to give and to trust how the team will split up (I can see other team members having an issue with him and Nao always answering the same until the last round for example).
秋山の計画だと確実に勝ち残れる保証はないし、結局運次第だよね。秋山と直が毎回少数派になるように操作できても、チームメイトがその答えに納得して、かつチームの分裂を信頼する必要がある（例えば最後まで秋山と直が同じ答えを続けることに他のメンバーが文句言いそうだし）。普通くん+5
HolyDragSwd2500
Glad you stayed. You’re in for a real treat later on 👍
おお、残ってくれたか。それは良き選択でござる。後の展開、まさに一見の価値あり、ご覧あれ。武士+21
Emi_Ibarazakiii
原文
> Definetly predicting that the X player is among the 6 they brought in
Definitely, otherwise it's too easy! Worst case scenario would be a split, which is still good enough.
>Also the plan will always have the issue that the final winner could just choose not to split the money after winning.
That's something I was wondering about... Would the organizers be fine with this?
And would they be fine with the team strategy in general? I mean I'm sure they'll expect some players to scheme, but to this extent?
>This feels like a very obvious oversight by Akiyama rn so I feel like he has to have a backup plan.
He's been shown to be clever, so I'm sure he considered that...
I think what it means is that they 100% have to win the last round (him or Nao), this way no shenanigans.
So for the last round, simply voting opposite (1 yes 1 no) is NOT gonna be enough; They'll need to figure out what the other players will vote, to make sure that Nao/Akiyama is in the minority.
So I guess that for the last round, they WILL need to play the minority game (and not just their strategies), because they'll need to know which side will win, and make sure to secure Nao/Akiyama in that spot.
(The ideal would be for Nao and Akiyama to be in the finals vs each other, but that's near impossible... They would need to vote the same thing in round 2, which would risk BOTH getting eliminated).
Oh, now that I think of it... If they do want to vote opposite in round 2, then they both need to vote the same in round 1, so I guess they'll also have to play the minority game in round 1 hah; If they vote on the same side and lose, they're at the mercy of the winner genuinely splitting the money at the end...
And if they vote on opposite side, then only one of them makes it to round 2, which means they would have to be 100% sure to win 2 rounds in a row on his specific side! (which would make the strategy a bit pointless, they wouldn't use the 'ensured victory', they would need to ensure it for 1 specific player).
確かにXプレイヤーは連れてこられた6人の中にいると思う。そうじゃなきゃ簡単すぎるしね。最悪でもスプリットならまだマシだ。
最終勝者が賞金を分けない可能性について、主催者はどう思うんだろうね？チーム戦略全般も、ある程度の策謀は想定してるだろうけど、ここまでとは思ってないかも。
秋山がバックアッププランを持ってるのは間違いない。彼は賢いから考慮済みだろう。つまり、最終ラウンドで絶対に勝つ必要があるってことだ（彼か奈央が）。そうすればゴタゴタは起きない。
最終ラウンドで単純に逆投票（1人がイエス、もう1人がノー）じゃ不十分で、他のプレイヤーの投票を読んで、奈央か秋山が少数派になるようにしないといけない。つまり、最終ラウンドではマイノリティゲームをやる必要があるってわけだ。
理想的には奈央と秋山が決勝で対決だけど、それはほぼ不可能。2ラウンド目で同じ投票をすると、両方脱落するリスクがあるしね。
あ、でも2ラウンド目で逆投票するなら、1ラウンド目は同じ側に投票しないといけない。つまり1ラウンド目もマイノリティゲームをやる必要があるってことか。もし同じ側で負けたら、最終的に勝者が本当に賞金を分けてくれるかどうかは運任せになるし。
逆側に投票したら片方しか2ラウンドに進めないから、その特定のプレイヤーが連続で2ラウンド勝たないといけなくなる。それだと戦略の意味がちょ普通くん+9
Drill_Dr_ill
Yeah, I'm glad I gave it another episode, although man do I still hate Nao's character and if she stays like this the whole time I'm gonna end up dropping it despite the games and strategy being interesting.
確かに、我はこの新たなる回を観て安堵したのだ。しかしながら、ナオという存在への憎悪は未だ我が心に渦巻いている。彼女がこのまま愚かなままで終わるならば、たとえゲームと策略が魅力的でも、我はこの物語を見限る運命を選ぶだろう。中二病+7
AlexeiFraytar
Its just the first game getting dragged out pacing when its just a short intro for how our MCs operate. Would have been better with 2 episodes.
確かに。最初のゲームが長引いてるだけで、主人公たちの動き方を紹介する短い導入部分だよね。2話でまとめた方が良かったかも。普通くん+6
DugACCat
原文
I’m glad they had the rehearsal to demonstrate how things with but the protag still comes across as dumb as hell. It’s ok for her to have fallen for the notion that she could vote honestly and wind up failing, but she shouldn’t be totally shocked and surprised at the result. I mean, the name of the game is “Liar’s Game.” Even a short bit of overthinking before going with her gut would have made her seem less an idiot. I know she’ll eventually get better and they need to reinforce her starting mindset, but it’s still a bit much.
リハーサルで仕組みが明らかになったのに、主人公が相変わらずバカすぎるのは気になる。正直に投票すれば失敗すると気づくのはまだ許せるが、結果に完全に驚いてるのはいただけない。何せゲーム名は「LIAR GAME」だ。直感に従う前に少しでも考えれば、もう少しマシに見えたはず。最終的に成長するのは分かってるし、初期の思考を強調する必要もあるんだろうが、それにしても度が過ぎてる。考察くん+59
Frontier246
I feel like she is just mentally not wired to to be able to think or comprehend something dishonest or insincere unless Akiyama tells her to do it.
Even when it came to recruiting the team it came down to her really believing in that old man and that she can count on her fellow women who conveniently can fill out their team number.
確かに彼女はアキヤマに言われない限り、不誠実なことや悪意のあることを考えたり理解したりするようには頭ができてないんだろうね。チーム集めの時も、あの老人を本気で信じてたし、たまたまチーム人数を埋めてくれる女性たちを頼りにしてただけだし。普通くん+39
Vahallen
原文
Nao kinda believes in anybody, so her believing in the other women and the old guy is just kinda a given
She got told “X” is bad but “X” can’t be this people, I think there is no further tought in Nao head outside of that, so no “fellow women” or “that old guy seemed honest”
Right now, unless told by Akiyama, she is likely to truly believe nobody would go against their word once the alliance is formed (which is obviously fantasy land)
返信先の者よ、その洞察は真理の一端を突いている。直は人の心の闇を理解する術を持たぬのだ。彼女の脳裏には「Xは悪」と告げられても「この者たちがXであるはずがない」という絶対の信条のみが存在する。故に「同じ女だから」「あの老人は誠実そうだから」などという思考の余地はないのだ。秋山に教えられぬ限り、結成された同盟が決して破られることはないと本気で信じている——それはまさに幻想の楽園だがな。中二病+18
NoHead1715
原文
\> She got told “X” is bad but “X” can’t be this people
I just realized one thing when I read this. Nao was told by Akiyama that X was a young man. What if it was a lie by Akiyama in order to ensure X is in their alliance? Akiyama heard all the info that Nao got from those she interacted, and knew how she would think if asked to form a team. Having known characters in the alliance would make it easier for Akiyama to manipulate the votes.
このコメントを読んで一つ気づいたんだが、直は秋山から「Xは若い男だ」と言われている。もしそれが秋山の嘘で、Xを自分たちの同盟に入れるための策略だったとしたら？秋山は直が交流した相手から得た情報をすべて聞き、チームを組むように言われたときに直がどう考えるかを知っていた。同盟に既知のキャラクターを入れておけば、秋山が票を操作しやすくなるという考察ができる。考察くん+11
Emi_Ibarazakiii
原文
*PEOPLE ARE ALLOWED TO LIE IN THE LIAR GAME?*
> I know she’ll eventually get better and they need to reinforce her starting mindset, but it’s still a bit much.
I talked about it in AQRADT last week, but I think the writer thinks his audience is fucking dumb...
I think Nao was dumb like this because they wanted to make sure the audience understood how the game works (that it's not about voting the truth or voting for the minority, it's about voting for what you think will be the minority).
*LIAR GAMEで嘘をつくことが許されるってこと？*
> 彼女が最終的には成長するってのはわかってるし、最初の考え方を強調する必要があるのも理解できるけど、それにしてもやりすぎだよな。
先週のAQRADTでも話したんだけど、作者は視聴者をバカだと思ってるんじゃないかな...
ナオがああいうバカっぽい行動をしてたのは、視聴者にゲームの仕組み（真実に投票するとか少数派に投票するとかじゃなくて、少数派になると思うものに投票するってこと）を理解させたかったからだと思う。普通くん+20
Ashteron
原文
>I talked about it in AQRADT last week, but I think the writer thinks his audience is fucking dumb...
To be frank it's common in animanga and given how comments of people failing to grasp or follow anime that don't spoonfeed their viewers or have many moving parts are not uncommon, is he really wrong to have such assumption? I wouldn't be surprised if that was a suggestion from his editor, but I digress.
同意。先週のAQRADTでも触れたけど、作者は視聴者を馬鹿だと思ってるんじゃないかって考察してたんだよな。
正直、アニメや漫画ではよくある話で、視聴者に情報を噛み砕いて与えない作品や展開が複雑な作品を理解できない人のコメントが珍しくない現状を考えると、その前提は間違ってないと思われる。編集者からの提案かもしれないが、それはさておき。考察くん+15
Emi_Ibarazakiii
原文
Oh I'm not necessarily saying he's wrong hah.
But basically I think the reason why she's so dumb is because the author is using her as a vessel to explain stuff (by her failing to do it properly), more than him wanting to make her so dumb on purpose.
(Though there also is a bit of that, I think he wants to make her naive&innocent&honest BUT the way she fails to understand these things is probably just so they can then be explained - I mean it was the whole purpose of the 'rehearsal' after all!)
あー、別に作者が間違ってるって言ってるわけじゃないんだよね笑
でも多分、あのキャラがバカすぎるのは、作者がわざとそうしてるっていうよりも、彼女を説明のための器として使ってるからだと思うんだよね（ちゃんとできずに失敗することで説明させる的な）。
（まあそういう意図も少しはあると思うけど、彼女を純粋で無垢で正直なキャラにしたいってのはある。でもああいう理解の仕方の失敗は、おそらく説明のためでしかないんだよね——そもそも「リハーサル」の目的がそれだったし！）普通くん+6
time_axis
原文
> I talked about it in AQRADT last week, but I think the writer thinks his audience is fucking dumb...
I mean, he wouldn't be entirely wrong. There were a lot of people last week who were not following the story and were calling Nao dumb for giving away the money, when that has nothing to do with how dumb someone is, since she didn't have any need for the money in the first place, she just wanted to avoid being in debt, which she reasonably thought she'd succeeded at.
I think 90% of the hate she's getting is just because her voice actress makes her sound ditzy.
先週AQRADTで話したんだけど、作者は視聴者を馬鹿だと思ってるやろ…ってワイは思うンゴ。
いや、完全に間違いとも言えんけどな。先週「ナオが金を譲ったからバカ」とか言ってる奴多かったやん。あれはバカとかの問題じゃなくて、そもそも彼女は金なんか要らんくて、借金さえ回避できればええと思ってただけやろ。ワイは合理的に成功したと思ったわ。
ワイが思うに、彼女への批判の9割は声優の声がアホっぽく聞こえるからやろな。草2ちゃん+14
boss14420
> I think Nao was dumb like this because they wanted to make sure the audience understood how the game works (that it's not about voting the truth or voting for the minority, it's about voting for what you think will be the minority).
This is Liar Game where no one can trust others, having a dumb character (and everyone know it) in your team is a huge advantage.
確かにナオがバカっぽいのは、視聴者に「このゲームは真実や少数派に投票するんじゃなくて、自分が少数派になると思うものに投票するんだ」ってルールを理解させるためだったんだろうな。
裏切りのLIAR GAMEでは、チームにバカなキャラ（しかもみんながそれを知ってる）がいるのは大きなアドバンテージだよね。普通くん+6
SuperRapidash
i think she is starting to learn though at the end of the episode with Akiyama being surprised at Nao telling the others that she's gonna die
確かにw でも最後の秋山がナオの「死ぬ」宣言に驚いてたシーン見ると、彼女も少しずつ学習してるっぽいよなwwwwおじ+22
OtherwiseProgrammer9
She did think she would die. Due to the conversation she had with Mohawk guy she thought they would sell her in the dark market and she would end up dead.
まあ、死ぬと思ってたんだろうな。モヒカンとの会話で闇市場に売られて死ぬって考えたんだろ。普通に納得だよ。ドライおじ+6
duo99dusk
So either one of the women was disguised as a young man, or even Akiyama himself was the young man and tricked that woman 🤣
やばくね！？女の一人が男装してたか、それかアキヤマ自身が若者に化けてその女を騙したってことじゃん🤣ギャル+41
abandoned_idol
Impossible!
Akiyama-san would never do that. He's never done that!
**cries**
ありえない！
秋山さんがそんなことするわけないじゃん。今までだって一度もないし！
**泣き**普通くん+16
Minute-Quantity-2502
Right, this team formed way too quickly for everyone to be in the clear
確かに！このチーム結成早すぎじゃない？全員が無実ってのは怪しすぎるって話だよね笑ギャル+12
magnumcyclonex
I was thinking just that!
それな！俺も全く同じこと考えてたッ！まさか女が男装してたか、秋山自身が若者に化けてたパターンか…どっちにしろ騙し合いがエモすぎるッ！感情くん+6
Emi_Ibarazakiii
原文
Love games like these! (I played a similar boardgame before... Though I think we weren't playing for 100 million yen)
I'm sure it's not the case (it would ruin the game) but he's right to be concerned!
And the organizers' defense was nonsense; They said it's impossible to rig because it's a minority game,
but that only makes it harder, not impossible; They would just need a bunch of plants, and yes it would lower the # of money they make, but if even if they manage to 'rob' only like 8 people by rolling 14 plants, it's still 800 million yen!
Ok, pains me to say, but Nao might be the dumbest anime character I've ever seen.
She was SHOCKED that most people didn't vote 'women'? Nevermind thinking high level strategies and all that, but either she did not understand the game (minority), OR she simplyd didn't realize that people are allowed to lie... In the... Liar game?
To be fair, it **IS** a complex game of psychology and predicting intentions/behaviors and all;
Because the first level is "The majority is men, so I should vote women to be in the minority!", but then the second level is "Everyone can see that women are the minority, and will do the same, so I should vote men after all", but then the third level is "They can probably figure this out just like I did, and realize everyone will vote men, so I should vote women!"...
And the question is.. At what "level" will people stop thinking, and go with this one? I think 'level 3' is usually a safe bet with random normal people in an everyday situation (that doesn't matter too much), BUT this is a game with life-changing money (or debt), AND many of those people are probably high level gamers/thinkers, so perhaps many of them will go as high as level 4 (back to voting men)... Or 5, staying on voting women?
It's hard to figure out when people will stop thinking it through, and vote on that. Especially with a large crowd like that; 1v1 would be much easier, just know 1 person and all, but with a group...
From what we've seen so far, I doubt you could find a way to solve a 2x2 squares Sudoku.
I don't think she's the right person to analyze a crowd... And surely he knows that!
So if I had to bet: I think he sent her there not to find information about them, but rather, so **they get information about her**;
So they see that she's ~~a fucking idiot~~ naive and innocent and doesn't have any 'game', and Akiyama will be able to use that later on, by telling her what to do, which means it'll be "his intellect" that plays the game with her naive persona, which might fool people!
(He already did something similar in the previous game, by letting her freak out)
Oh? Right off the bat when he said that, I thought "What if someone else uses the same strategy?"
There can't be ties, so if two people use the same strategy, one will lose, thus... How is this foolproof?
That's clever, but yeah the reflexion above exposes the problem with this;
Even if someone doesn't use the exact same strategy right off the bat, they could head this way at some point;
4 players left, 2 on the alliance and 2 randoms... The 2 randoms may decide to join together, for a sure shot at half the price (vs taking a gamble for the whole thing).
And then the games will be perpetually tied, at which point... The organizers would know something's up, and would they act about it? What could they do? Even if they said "no teams anymore", well the teams could still keep voting the same way anyway, so what happens then...
I suppose what WOULD happen is that the 4 people would probably make a deal (split four way), but would the organizers accept this?
But this also raises another question; Can you agree on splitting, and then keeping it all to yourself? If that's the case, this may be why he sent Nao to talk to people, because she seems more trustworthy than he is!
Well I'm guessing that's precisely what will happen, otherwise it's a little too easy!
They'll notice at some point (either the first or second round) because the votes won't match their strategy...
(At which point perhaps they should make sure Nao understood it, that she's not fucking it up)
A mole would need to be INSANELY good to be effective though; Because all they can do is swap their votes to the MAJORITY (5-3 instead of 4-4), so they need to make sure that the thing they vote for will be the minority, DESPITE then giving it an extra 2 votes...
So they would need to be able to read the room real well to know what the others are voting for!
So we're looking for an extremely smart/perceptive person.
So huh... Who's the "young man"?
I'm guessing it's not the old man, it would be too obvious... (Then again they did give him a backstory, perhaps to add some weight to his lie/fake persona?)
Please don't be this one!
We already have a cute blondie (man) this season, don't tempt us with a second one!
If I got strictly by the looks, I think 3 of them definitely have the "Yeah that could be a dude in a wig" looks, so I wonder which one it'll be!
(I'm all theorizing about it when we don't even know yet if there's a mole in the group, but if we want an extra challenge 'the game within the game' he has to be in their group... Plus, if he's NOT in their group there's nothing he can do other than doing their same strategy, which would at worst lead to a 4 way split!)
So yeah, he's 100% in their group, AND he'll try to do his thing in the first or second round at the latest; He can't wait til the third round, it's too late (he wouldn't be able to create a winning side at this point).
Well, looking forward to this! (I'm not gonna lie, I kinda wishes they played it a bit more 'normal' to see all their strategies evolve over the course of the game - and not a set strategy right off the bat), but I suppose X will make this more challenging and all, so can't wait to see how it plays out!
この手のゲームは考察のし甲斐があるな。似たようなボードゲームをやったことがあるが、さすがに1億円を賭けてはいなかったが…。
主催者の弁護は論理的に破綻していると言わざるを得ない。「マイノリティゲームだから不正は不可能」と主張していたが、それは難易度が上がるだけで不可能ではない。仮に14人のサクラを投入して8人だけから搾取できれば、8億円の収益になる計算だ。つまり不正は可能であり、彼らの主張は詭弁だ。
直美については、正直言ってアニメ史上最も愚かなキャラクターではないかと思えてならない。彼女は大多数が「女性」に投票しないことに衝撃を受けていたが、これはゲームの本質（マイノリティ）を理解していないか、あるいは「嘘をつくことが許されている」というライアーゲームの前提を完全に無視しているとしか考えられない。
このゲームの深層を分析すると、心理戦の階層構造が浮かび上がる。第一階層は「男性が多数派だから女性に投票する」、第二階層は「皆が同じ戦略を取ると読んで男性に戻す」、第三階層は「その先読みをさらに読んで女性に戻す」という無限ループだ。問題は参加者がどの階層で思考を止めるかだが、通常の状況なら第三階層が安全牌と言える。しかし生死に関わる大金が絡むこの場では、第四階層（男性に戻す）や第五階層（女性に留まる）まで考える参加者もいるだろう。集団心理の解析は極めて困難だ。
秋山が直美を送り込んだ真の目的についてだが考察くん+42
Frontier246
There's just something hilarious to me that Nao hear’s a question "are you a woman?" and just goes "oh, I'm a woman! I'll vote honestly!"
The blonde feels like she's going to come off like a bad bitch but is secretly a legitimate ride-or-die friend if you get to know her better.
確かに。直が「あなたは女ですか？」って質問聞いて「あ、私女だ！正直に投票します！」ってなるの、なんか面白すぎるんだよね。
金髪の子は一見悪い女っぽく見えるけど、実は知れば知るほど本気で味方になってくれる友達って感じがするな。普通くん+30
T3tr4d5
Great analysis, and you are correct that even though Nao is too naive, it is still very difficult to win this game if you play it normally, since it is tricky to predict at what level each player stop thinking. Akiyama's strategy is more foolproof, at least on paper.
同意。ナオの純粋さは確かに弱点だが、このゲームはプレイヤー各自の思考停止ラインを予測するのが難しく、普通にプレイするだけでは勝利は困難だという考察は正しい。秋山の戦略は少なくとも理論上はより堅実だ。彼の思考の階層が深い分、相手の裏をかきやすいという点で、伏線としても機能している。考察くん+21
duo99dusk
Probably Nao's thinking will surprise later, in a part of the game where everyone is deeply lying she will probably bring a surprise win.
確かに、ナオの考え方後々驚くことになるかもなw
みんなが深く嘘をつき合うゲームの中で、彼女がまさかの勝利をもたらす展開が来そう笑wwwおじ+10
Chuckles131
Tbh even right now, her sincerity is a powerful asset for building alliances.
確かに今の時点でも、彼女の誠実さは同盟を組む上で強力な武器になってると思う。普通くん+21
Jacob-C
原文
I was going to point out how his strategy isn't foolproof and he most likely knows that. He's just using the naive Nao to make it look like it's his real plan. I was going to point out a bunch of other things as well, but you more or less did it all already. Superb analysis!
Despite Nao being really dumb during that test round, I am not even annoyed. I am having a blast laughing at her freaking out over the most simple and/or obvious things. When the mohawk guy told her that she was going to be sold and she immediately bought it, I just couldn't help myself. It's a valid worry to have, but her reaction and immediately asking Akiyama about it just made the whole thing hilarious.
同意。彼の戦略が完全無欠じゃない点、そして本人がそれを重々承知している点は確かに重要だな。素人の直を利用して、それを本物の計画に見せかけている——まさにその通りだ。他にも色々指摘しようと思ったが、君がほぼ網羅してくれている。素晴らしい分析だ。
テストラウンドでの直の愚かさには正直イライラしないどころか、単純かつ明白なことにパニックになる姿が笑えて仕方ない。モヒカン男に「売られる」と言われて即座に信じ込み、秋山にすぐ相談しに行くシーンは特に秀逸だ。心配自体は妥当だが、彼女のリアクションと即座の行動が全体を滑稽にしている。このギャップがLIAR GAMEの魅力の一つだな。考察くん+21
Prestigious_Spend_81
the biggest flaw is that if the last man or woman standing is not one of the main characters there's nothing stopping them to walk with all the money.
確かに、その弱点は某も気づいておった。もし最後に残った者が主要キャラでなければ、金を全て持って逃げるのを止める術はないでござるな。武士+10
Ashteron
>I kinda wishes they played it a bit more 'normal' to see all their strategies evolve over the course of the game - and not a set strategy right off the bat
This strategy is too easy to come up with for Akiyama to not do so immediately.
確かに、最初から確立された戦略じゃなくて、ゲームを進める中で徐々に戦略が変わっていく様子も見たかった気持ちはわかる。でも秋山にとってはこの戦略があまりにも簡単に思いつくから、すぐに実行しない理由がないんだよね。普通くん+10
NanDemoKnaives
I understand feeling anxiety with those kinds of stakes, but the way she ran off and starts screaming for Akiyama to help her was so bizarre to me.
The plan is definitely not foolproof since no-one's loyalty is guaranteed. I hope Akiyama has something else up his sleeve.
草、あの状況で焦る気持ちはわかるけど、秋山に助けてって叫びながら逃げ出すのは意味わからんすぎやろwww
計画も全員の忠誠が保証されてないから完璧とは言えんしな。秋山にまだ何か秘策があることを願うわ。2ちゃん+37
Minute-Quantity-2502
Literallyyyyyy. If I was Akiyama, even if I was in the room I wouldn't have opened the door with that girl hollering like that
それな。俺が秋山でもあの叫び方されたらドア開けたくないわ。普通くん+5
FoolingFinality
I can say with 33% that this X is a women among the participants with another 33% that X is this old man, who is actually a young man cosplaying.
え、まじでXって女の子なの？それとも老人のふりしたイケメン？やばくね笑ギャル+33
Frontier246
Honestly feel like the next big betrayal for Nao is either realizing solidarity among women does not exist in Liar Game or that she's going to fall for another sob story.
確かに、Naoにとって次に来る大きな裏切りは「女同士の連帯なんてこのゲームには存在しない」って気づくか、また可哀想な話に騙されるかのどっちかだと思う。普通くん+24
DugACCat
原文
Yeah trusting an entire gender to be willing to play along seems very short sighted. But I guess in the time remaining they just had to take a shot, trying to keep out the”X” factor, even if that doesn’t guarantee those they gathered will follow the plan. Someone will inevitably get greedy and want to get more. Plus there’s several ways “X” could be among them without them knowing.
There’s no time to really get to know prove, especially when most are at least capable liars. The protag needs to learn even the slightest amount of suspicion and mistrust (or at least caution).
確かに「女同士なら結束できる」って考えは甘すぎやろなwww
- 時間ないから仕方なく「X」排除狙ったのは分かる
- でも集めた連中が全員計画通り動く保証なんてないやん
- 絶対誰かが欲かいて裏切るンゴ
- そもそも「X」が混ざってる可能性も排除できてないし
主人公ももう少し疑うことを覚えろや。時間なくて証明もできんのに、大抵のやつは嘘つきやぞ。せめて警戒心くらい持てって話や。2ちゃん+13
abandoned_idol
I bet Nao is going to win and show her true colors by taking all the money for herself!
"Akiyama-san, you're a stupid idiot! I can't believe you fell for it. Did you honestly think I was that naive?!"
Heck, I bet even reddit would find themselves bamboozled if that were the outcome.
それな、直が勝って全部の金を一人で持っていって本性現す展開になりそうだよな！
「秋山さん、バカじゃないの？まさかこんなのに引っかかると思ってたの？私がそんな純粋だと思った？」
もしそうなったら、redditの人たちもまんまと騙されるんじゃないかな。普通くん+7
mythriz
One of the women is a *marriage swindler*
せやな、女の中に結婚詐欺師が1人おるんやろなあwww2ちゃん+5
FoolingFinality
I was going to make a assumption for 50% each too at first, but then I thought, what if the mangaka intentionally throw a curve at us by making X as one of the remaining male participants?
Hence I went with the 33% assumption.
なるほど、確かに最初は俺も50％ずつで考えたんだが、そこで気付いたんだよ。もし作者が意図的に、残った男性参加者の一人にXを仕込んでくる可能性を考慮すべきだと思ってな。その場合、33％の仮説がより合理的という考察ができる。考察くん+5
HolyDragSwd2500
And thus Minority Rule Game has begun. Who could Mr X be . Find out next time on Liar Game Z
Another note: Happy to see those who stayed on and continued. You won’t regret
ついに少数決ゲームが始まったじゃん！Xって誰なんだろね。次回のLiar Game Zで判明って感じか〜
ついでに言うと、最後まで残って続けてる人たち見れて嬉しいよ！まじで後悔しないってマジ！ギャル+24
Vahallen
There is obviously the only other guy being able to eat while everyone else (outside of Akiyama) was dying of anxiety
Casually it’s also a young male, but it’s too obvious so it must be a red herring
確かに、他のみんなが不安で死にそうになってる中で、唯一普通に飯食えてたのはあの男だけだよね。
しかも若い男ってのもミスリードっぽいし、あからさま過ぎて逆に怪しいな。普通くん+10
AbyssalSolitude
Ah, Nao acting shocked to the core after discovering that Liar Game involves lying. Again.
How I missed it.
草、また嘘つきゲームに嘘があるって知って真顔で驚いてるナオかよw
何度見てもたまらんわwww2ちゃん+20
ObvsThrowaway5120
Nao is really way too naive and innocent. I hope there comes a point where she doesn’t constantly rely on Akiyama to bail her out. She needs to sharpen up and toughen up ASAP.
Akiyama’s plan works on paper but it’s a big gamble. Trust is a huge factor. Even the slightest hint of betrayal, and it’s over. Idk who X is yet, but I have a feeling one of the 6 in Team Akiyama ain’t on the level.
直人（なお）は確かに純真すぎるというか、世間知らずが過ぎるな。彼女が秋山の助けを借りずに立ち回れるようになる展開が来てほしい。もっと頭を鍛えて、精神的に強くならなきゃ。
秋山の作戦は理論上は成立するが、大きな賭けだ。信頼が全ての鍵で、裏切りの兆しが一瞬でもあれば瓦解する。Xの正体はまだ不明だが、秋山チームの6人のうち1人は信用できない気がする。伏線として配置されたキャラがいる可能性を考慮すると、今後の展開で裏切りが発覚する流れが自然だと思われる。考察くん+18
Frontier246
It feels like even Akiyama is getting more annoyed at how much she's crying and begging for help even when he's trying to help her.
確かに、秋山も助けてる最中に泣いて頼ってばかりだとイライラしてきそうだよね。普通くん+13
Emi_Ibarazakiii
原文
> Akiyama’s plan works on paper but it’s a big gamble. Trust is a huge factor. Even the slightest hint of betrayal, and it’s over. Idk who X is yet, but I have a feeling one of the 6 in Team Akiyama ain’t on the level.
The issue with a betrayal is that's it's REALLY hard to do one that actually helps you;
Say the first round, votes are supposed to be 4 yes and 4 no.
If you're supposed to be yes, but you betray them and vote no, suddenly there's 5 no and 3 yes; Unless you're 100% sure that the other 14 players will vote yes overwhelmingly, then you pretty much just kicked yourself out of the game, by having the group vote "+2 no".
So unless it's a MAJOR conspiracy (he swaps his vote to no, and get like 2-3 of the others to swap their vote to yes), he's only hurting his chances...
Unless he can read the room with near certainty, to know what the majority is going to vote (so he can safely swap his vote at will)!
アキヤマの作戦は机上では成立してるけど、かなりのギャンブルやな。信頼がめっちゃ重要やし。ちょっとでも裏切りの兆候があったら即詰みや。Xが誰かはまだ分からんけど、アキヤマチームの6人のうち誰か1人は怪しい気がするンゴ。
裏切りって、実際に自分に有利に働かせるのがガチで難しいんよな。
例えば第1ラウンドで、賛成4、反対4の想定やったとする。自分は賛成のハズやのに裏切って反対に入れたら、急に反対5、賛成3になるやろ？残り14人が圧倒的に賛成するって確信がない限り、グループに「反対+2」を食らわせて自分で自分を蹴落としてるだけや。
だから、大規模な陰謀（自分を反対に変えて、他2〜3人を賛成に変える）でもない限り、自分のチャンスを潰してるだけやで…部屋の空気をほぼ確実に読めるなら話は別やけどな。2ちゃん+15
Arzhart
I think the main problem with a betrayal comes in the end. The last player to remain can have a change of mind and decide to betray once they won. I.e, not sharing the prize nor paying the debts
わかる〜！でも結局最後に裏切られるのが一番やばいじゃん？勝った人が「やっぱ一人で持ってくわ」って心変わりしたら終わりだし、賞金分けてもらえないどころか借金も払ってもらえなくなるってまじきついわ笑ギャル+12
abandoned_idol
No, that's impossible.
You don't actually think anyone would lie the liar game do you? That's preposterous.
People are too honest and not interested in money.
いや無理やろwww
誰がLIAR GAMEで嘘つくわけないって本気で思ってるんか？アホかと。
みんな正直すぎて金に興味ないってか？草2ちゃん+6
Jacob-C
Nao's naivete/stupidity becomes a rather enjoyable aspect if you just laugh at it instead of being annoyed by it. Newfound appreciation.
確かに直の純粋さというかバカさ加減は、イライラするより笑い飛ばすと結構楽しめる要素になるよね。新たな発見。普通くん+17
T3tr4d5
Lots of people are calling Nao stupid, but in that one scene (when Akiyama is explaining his plan and asks her to calculate things), she can quickly do mental math in her mind and calculate the numbers to the decimals. Lowkey, she might be better at arithmetic than the average person.
確かに多くの視聴者は直（なお）をバカ扱いしてるけど、あのシーン（秋山が作戦を説明して計算を頼む場面）で彼女が暗算で小数点まで瞬時に計算してたのは見逃せないポイントだよな。平均的な人間より算数能力が高い可能性が示唆されてるんだよな。この描写、制作陣が意図的に入れた伏線だと思われる。考察くん+14
Frontier246
原文
Welcome to minority rule! A deceptively simple game of answering "yes" or "no" to a question...and if you're lucky, you'll be in the minority and make it to the next round.
Akiyama asking what we've all probably been thinking about what this is all about. Seems like the producers are trying to crown a "Liar King," so they have to whittle down the best Liar Game players until they find the best liar among them. And then they'll use said liar for their own ends? Either way, that's why they won't cheat through the game, because they need someone to win.
At least they're nice enough to supply everyone with a buffet...and quite possibly the last good meal a good chunk of these people will ever eat.
Akiyama's not there just for Nao, he's also there for Michiko, a woman who was so wracked with guilt over winning her first round that she wanted out...and she got conned out of the check that would have got her out of the game. So not only does Akiyama have to deal with Nao being stuck in this, but he has to get Michiko free too. He seems like a sucker for sincere brunette's.
Nao thought she could take advantage of the fact that women are the minority gender in the competition...only to end up being the majority because most of the men voted that they were women thinking it would secure them a win. If this wasn't just a rehearsal, Nao would have lost. This is how tricky Minority Rule is.
This is probably the swankiest room Nao has ever been in but she's not in a mood to enjoy it when she's wracking her brain around how she can win. She runs and cries to Akiyama but that won't solve anything. Right now they need to figure out their fellow players and suss out who's who and why they're in this game.
Count on a genius conman to come up with a way to win Liar's Game! With the power of teamwork, surprisingly enough! If they have eight people they can vote their way through until they end up with enough people left to win the game and pay everybody on the team out! All they need to do is avoid "X," the guy who screwed Michiko over!
(Sunglasses totally seems like a guy to watch out for)
Count on Nao to cry and grovel her away into recruiting all the ladies and Mr. Irumo into her and Akiyama's teams! I especially like that blonde beautie!
少数派ルールへようこそ！質問に「はい」「いいえ」で答えるだけのシンプルなゲーム…運が良ければ少数派になって次のラウンドに進めるんだ。
秋山がみんなが思ってた疑問を代弁してくれたな。要するにプロデューサーたちは「ライアーキング」を決めたくて、最高の嘘つきを見つけるまでプレイヤーを絞り込んでるんだよ。で、その嘘つきを自分たちの目的に使うってわけか？いずれにせよ、だからゲームで不正をしないんだな。誰かを勝たせる必要があるから。
せめてビュッフェを用意してくれるのは親切だな…おそらく参加者の大半が最後に食べるまともな食事だろうけど。
秋山はナオのためだけじゃなくて、ミチコのためにも来てるんだな。最初のラウンドで勝った罪悪感に苛まれて抜け出したかった女性で、ゲームから抜け出すための小切手を騙し取られちゃったんだよ。だから秋山はナオがこのゲームに巻き込まれてるのを処理するだけでなく、ミチコも解放しないといけない。誠実な茶髪の女性に弱いみたいだな。
ナオは競技で女性が少数派ってことを利用できると思ったのに…結局大多数になっちゃった。ほとんどの男性が「自分は女性」って投票して勝ちを確実にしようとしたからな。これが本番じゃなかったから助かったけど、少数派ルールって本当にトリッキーだ。
ナオが今までいた中で一番豪華な部屋だろうけど、勝ち方を考え込普通くん+10
T3tr4d5
Curious how people will approach this game if they find themselves in Nao and Akiyama's positions. What strategies will you use? Do you use the same strat as Akiyama? Could people predict the winning strategy easily just like in the first round? I think the fun in this show is to try coming up with your own strategy and compare it with the show.
せやな、もし自分がナオとアキヤマの立場やったらどう動くか気になるわ。どんな戦略使う？アキヤマと同じ手を使うんか？1回戦みたいに簡単に勝ち筋見抜けるんやろか？ワイは自分で戦略考えてアニメと比較するのがこの作品の面白さやと思うンゴwww2ちゃん+6
rebon6
原文
Akiyama's strategy is actually a perfect strategy. Since everyone is given 6 hours per vote, any genius would be able to come up with it and ally with 8 other people.
Simply relying on luck and playing the game normally doesn't really do anything, you'd have to be an expert at reading people to be able to win against all 21 players.
I actually played a similar game before with the same rules years ago.
In the event, the first question was like "Do you think you'll win this game?" Majority picked yes and the minority picked no, so yes people including me who picked yes on the first round all lost.
In my mind I thought everyone would pick no because they think everyone picked yes, so I also picked yes, which ended up on me losing the first round immediatly.
So If i were to participate and come up with something, there's no other perfect strategy than Akiyama's strategy. Otherwise its just a really complex version of rock paper scissors against 21 other players.
If you're worried about someone betraying near the end, Im gonna guess contracts exist in this game just like any mind game genre so the traitors can easily be avoided by forming a contract (I dont think Akiyama is that stupid not to have thought of this, otherwise its near impossible to prevent a traitor from betraying).
Its how the genre of these things are usually solved, to prevent betrayal. And I already have experienced many mind game novels and manga to know that they always use some form of contract to avoid traitors and moles.
秋山の戦略は実際完璧だと思う。投票ごとに6時間も与えられてるなら、天才なら誰でもあの戦略を思いついて8人と同盟を組めるはず。
単純に運任せで普通にゲームをやっても意味ないし、21人全員に勝つには人の読みにめちゃくちゃ長けてないと無理だよ。
実は俺、何年か前に同じルールのゲームをやったことあるんだ。最初の質問が「自分が勝つと思うか？」で、多数派が「はい」、少数派が「いいえ」だったんだけど、俺含めて「はい」を選んだ人は全滅した。
俺は「みんなが『はい』を選ぶと思って『いいえ』を選ぶだろう」と考えて『はい』を選んだんだけど、それが裏目に出て初戦で負けた。
だから俺が参加して何か考えるとしたら、秋山の戦略以外に完璧な戦略はないと思う。そうじゃなきゃ、21人相手の複雑なジャンケンゲームになるだけだし。
最後に裏切る人が心配なら、この手の心理ゲームには契約書が存在するはずだから、それで防げると思う。秋山がそこまでの対策を考えてないとは思えないし、そうじゃなきゃ裏切りを防ぐのはほぼ不可能だよ。
このジャンルでは大抵そうやって裏切りを防ぐのが常套手段だし、俺は多くの心理ゲーム小説や漫画を読んできたから、裏切り者やスパイを避けるために必ず契約書が使われるのを知ってる。普通くん+6
Frontier246
Two of the women have short enough hair that if they put on a suit and pants you could maybe mistake them for a man (in fact one of them is actually wearing pants).
It'll be a struggle just for Nao and Akiyama to be able to be in the minority for each round, because they probably have to keep going rather than trust someone on their team will be able to win the whole thing for them.
このコメントから考察できるのは、キャラクターデザインにおける性別表現と、ゲーム戦略の二点だ。まず、短髪の女性キャラにスーツとパンツを着せると男性と誤認されうるという指摘は、制作陣が視覚的な騙しや役割分担を意図している可能性を示唆している。実際にパンツ姿のキャラがいる点も、性別の曖昧さを利用した伏線かもしれない。
次に、直と秋山が各ラウンドで少数派に留まり続ける苦戦は、チームメンバーへの信頼が不十分な状況を反映している。彼らが他者任せにせず自ら勝ち進む必要があるという点は、物語の緊張感を高める構造と言える。チーム全体の勝利よりも個人の戦略が優先されるLIAR GAMEの本質をよく捉えた考察だ。考察くん+5
DBLACK382
"She will get better, trust!"
Bruh, she is getting worse
「絶対良くなるって、信じて！」
…いや、むしろ悪化してるんだけどッ！感情くん+5
MMinjin
Definitely a large tick up in quality this episode, but Nao is still incredibly annoying.
マジで今回のクオリティ上がってたじゃん！でもナオは相変わらずうざすぎるんだが笑ギャル+5
BBryant3rd
I was shocked when he laid the full plan out to Nao. He has to be changing things later since he knows how naive/honest she is. She has to be being used again to insure their win.
草www ナオに全計画ぶちまけた時はワイもマジでビビったわ
あいつナオがどんだけ純粋か分かってるから、後で絶対何か変えるやろ
また利用されて勝ち確定させるつもりやな2ちゃん+5
原文