#10LIAR GAME
放送 2026-06-08更新 2026-06-23
BaytaCosmico
Link to the MV : it's pretty cool
リンク貼ってあるMV見たんだけど、めっちゃかっこいいじゃん!ギャル
kwokinator
So it's basically Re:Zero or Edge of Tomorrow with a mystery gunman. Very cool.
つまりリゼロか『オール・ユー・ニード・イズ・キル』の謎のガンマン版ってわけかw めっちゃクールじゃん笑wwwおじ
amaterasu_
Erm wow. My usual thought on these threads is thanks for telling me to stick with it but now it’s thanks for letting me know about this vid. It’s really, really good.
ふーん、なるほどな。普段こういうスレでは「最後まで見ろってことか」って思うだけだけど、今回はこの動画を教えてくれてありがとうって感じだ。本当に良かったぞ。ドライおじ
Emi_Ibarazakiii
Now make this an anime, pls!
これアニメ化してくれよなw マジで頼むわ笑wwwおじ
Shantotto11
You’re asking for Re:Zero and Summertime Rendering, bro…
Re:Zeroとサマータイムレンダリングを求めてるのか…確かにどっちも面白いよね。普通くん
Frontier246
Y'know as someone who was somewhat put off by the Nao's seeming eagerness and readiness to lie so suddenly last episode. This episode reframes her actions very nicely. She doesn't think that she's deceiving them but actually saving them instead, which means she isn't going against her core values. I like that. She's a conwoman with a heart of gold, the best kind!
せやな、前回のナオが急に嘘つきまくってるように見えてちょっと引いてたんやけどな。今回でちゃんと意味が変わってきたわ。彼女は騙してるつもりやなくて、むしろ救ってるつもりなんやろ。つまり自分の信念は曲げてないってことや。そこがええわ。心は金持ちの詐欺師、最高やんけ!草2ちゃん
ShotgunShine7094
Just like Akiyama
確かに!秋山だよな!!あの冷静な頭脳ヤバすぎるッ!感情くん
Emi_Ibarazakiii
That's a good type of character progression! Progression in stories is often too close to a complete 180.. But here, same values, different methods!
いいキャラクターの成長の仕方だね!物語の成長ってよく180度完全に変わりすぎることが多いけど、ここでは同じ価値観で方法だけ変わってるのが良いと思う。普通くん
gamria
This is why us source readers can only tell viewers that "it'll pay off" or "it's worth the wait", but we can't be more specific about it. None of our words would've done justice to how Nao develops this way, of how she can embrace and balance two seeming contradictions at once, and it would've spoiled the fun.
確かに、原作勢としては「後で報われる」「待つ価値がある」としか言えない理由がここにあるな。ナオの成長を言葉で説明しても、彼女が一見矛盾する二つの要素を同時に抱え、バランスを取る過程の素晴らしさを伝えきれないし、説明してしまえば楽しみを奪うことになる。この展開は、1話からの伏線が丁寧に回収された結果だと思われる。制作陣の意図が読めるな。考察くん
magnumcyclonex
Oh wow! Thanks for mentioning it. It truly is one of the most intriguing MV's I've seen in a long time. I like seeing the evolution of his thought process, culminating in breaking a certain wall.
おお、教えてくれてサンキューな。
最近見たMVの中じゃガチで一番興味深かったわ。
思考の進化が、ある壁を壊すところでクライマックス迎える流れ、めっちゃ好きやわ。2ちゃん
gamria
原文
I'll add that breaking said wall also plays to the themes of this series, both with "thinking outside the box" and with Nao's epiphany that the player's enemy isn't necessarily the opponent in front of you, but the gamemaster who put you into the situation in the first place. In fact, the lyrics of the song also very much plays to the themes of Liar Game (a shame we only have shoddy translations online): the despair of being fooled, of falling into debt over the carefree dream of "bubble money" ( abuku-zeni , AKA easy money earned without effort and gone in a blink), of being reduced to a beast who howls into the wind with no one paying attention, left with a hoarse voice and no way out. All just because of a desperate wish for a spark of joy, for something that won't burn out. So then, in this series, is there anything that can be described as "won't burn out", that is precious?
壁を壊すってのがこのシリーズのテーマにも合ってるよね。「枠にとらわれない思考」ってのもそうだし、奈緒が「プレイヤーの敵は目の前の相手じゃなくて、そもそもその状況を作ったゲームマスターだ」って気づくのもそう。実際、歌詞もライアーゲームのテーマにすごく合ってるんだよな(ネットの翻訳は粗いけど残念):騙される絶望、泡銭(あぶくぜに)の気楽な夢で借金に落ちる悲しみ、誰も気にしない風に吠える獣になって、声は枯れて逃げ場もなくなる。ただ消えない喜びの一筋を必死に願っただけなのに。じゃあ、このシリーズで「消えない」ものって何かあるんだろうな。普通くん
mads_zero
I cracked a joke in the comments last week, "lying is wrong... but lying to Fukunaga?" But no no no, what we really skipped over is a conversation between Akiyama and Nao: "I don't know if I can lie to everyone like that..." "What if by lying, you could get everyone out of debt?" [somewhere deep inside Nao, a long-disused Lying Circuit activates from dormancy]
先週のコメントで「嘘はダメ…でもフクナガに嘘つくのは?」って冗談言ったンゴwww
でもマジで見逃してたわ、アキヤマとナオの会話。
「みんなにそんな嘘つけるかわかんない…」
「嘘でみんなを借金から救えるとしたら?」
ここでナオの中の長らく休眠してた嘘回路が起動したんやろなwww2ちゃん
NegativeThee
Why am I seeing magical circuits from Fate when you say that?
それってFateの魔術回路思い出させるんだけど、なんでそう見えるんだろうね?普通くん
mads_zero
"Yeah, the only thing these circuits were ever meant to do were lie to Fukunaga..."
まじでそれ!この回路ってさ、最初っからフクナガを騙すためだけに作られてたんだってやばくね!?笑ギャル
FastenedCarrot
I agree on both points. The OP in particular, it's very cool. I like the song a lot too.
同意すぎるッ!OPがマジでかっこよすぎるし曲もめっちゃ好き!優勝!感情くん
Shantotto11
Gotta be number 3 for me. It barely slides in behind the PVs for Kaiju (Orb: On the Movements of the Earth) and Haru (Frieren: Beyond Journey’s End).
3番かな。怪獣(チ。―地球の運動について―)とハル(葬送のフリーレン)のPVにちょっとだけ及ばない感じだね。普通くん
Oden_sama__
MY FAVOURITE MV EVER It's also my fav op song of the season along with 飛ぶ時
ワイの人生で一番好きなMVやわ
今期のOPでは飛ぶ時と並んでぶっちぎりやで2ちゃん
eyrington
Wow thank you, the MV Is truely a master piece
おお、感謝申し上げる。あのMV、まさに神業の極みでござるな武士
bananeeek
Game 4 Rules: You can bring anything, except Akiyama. Nao in shambles
ゲーム4のルール:秋山以外なら何でも持ち込めるって。ナオちゃん困惑してるね。普通くん
Frontier246
Nao: "Not...not even if I tired to fit him into my purse? Or put a leash on him?" Akiyama: "Hey now..."
「じゃあさ…バッグに無理やり詰め込むとか、リードつけるとかじゃダメなの?」→秋山「おいおい…」
やばくね!?直のこの発想まじで可愛すぎん!?笑 でも秋山のツッコミも絶妙すぎるじゃん!ギャル
Emi_Ibarazakiii
He teaches her well so she's as smart as he is now Game 5 Rules: You have to be stupid like you used to be
草 先生がちゃんと教えたから今じゃワイ並みに賢くなってるやんwww
Game 5のルール: 昔みたいにバカになれってか?2ちゃん
Jacob-C
*Anya's "gaan!" shocked face*
アーニャの「ガーン!」って顔、無理すぎるッ!優勝!!感情くん
Best_Trouble_7676
Holy shit, actual pay-off for nine episodes of Nao's stupidity. Very much happy with that speech she gave.
草、ナオのバカ行動9話分の回収キターーー!!!
あの演説ガチでよかったわwww2ちゃん
Frontier246
I love how Leronira was like "Wow, I really thought this was the most stupidest girl of all time but maybe she actually has potential as the main character!" Meanwhile crooked lawyer: "Dang, where was this level of self-awareness when I roped her into this a second time!?"
リロニラが「うわ、今まで会った中で一番バカな子だと思ってたけど、主人公としての素質あるかも!」ってなる流れ好き。一方で曲がった弁護士は「おいおい、二度も巻き込んだ時にその自覚はどこにあったんだよ!?」って感じだね。普通くん
duo99dusk
Even the shady lawyer was speechless!
怪しい弁護士ですら言葉失ってたンゴwww2ちゃん
VMelain
I actually got engaged by the first 2 games but nao continued to be so unbearable i had to drop both anime and manga 😭
最初の2ゲームまでは引き込まれたんだけど、奈緒があまりにも耐えられなくてアニメも漫画も両方切っちゃったわ😭普通くん
Emi_Ibarazakiii
Yet you still read the threads 8 episodes later?
ふん…8話も経ったというのに、なおも我が目をこのスレッドに捧げ続けるとはな。それこそが運命の導きか、あるいはただの執念か…まあ、どちらにせよ興味深いのだ。中二病
VMelain
It appeared while i was scrolling, i just read the first few comments what people thought about this series. The anime would be so good without her
え、マジで!?スクロールしてたら出てきたんだけど、最初の方のコメント読んでみたんだよね。彼女がいなければこのアニメめっちゃ良くなるって意見多くて、確かにそれわかるわ〜笑ギャル
ussgordoncaptain2
原文
Sorry, your comment has been removed. This belongs in the Source Material Corner at the top of this thread. In discussion threads for currently airing anime, discussions about source material, spin-offs, author comments and unadapted content must be posted there. Any comparison to the source material no matter how minor belongs there. Your comment was NOT removed for spoilers; it was removed for discussion of the source material outside of the Source Material Corner . Questions? Reply to this message, send a modmail , or leave a comment in the meta thread . Don't know the rules? Read them here .
すみません、あなたのコメントは削除されました。これはこのスレッドの「原作コーナー」に属する内容です。現在放送中のアニメの議論スレでは、原作、スピンオフ、作者コメント、未アニメ化部分の話題はすべてそこに投稿してください。たとえ些細な比較でも同様です。削除理由はネタバレではなく、原作コーナー外での原作関連の議論のためです。質問があればこのメッセージに返信するか、モデレーションメールを送るか、メタスレッドにコメントしてください。ルールはこちらで確認できます。普通くん
21shadesofsavage
same. cept i stuck with it to see if nao gets better and some comments said this episode would be the one where i'll change my opinion of her i like her framing of the game's intent, but nao straight up brought akiyama into the game and he did almost everything
ワイもや。でもナオが成長するか見たくて粘ったンゴ。今回で評価変わるって言われてたけどな。ゲームの意図を解釈するのは良かったわ。でもナオが秋山をゲームに連れ込んで、ほぼ全部やらせたやんwww 草2ちゃん
hellomelody312
原文
They never promised that she would be smart as akiyama, that is just ridiculous and impossible. This episode tells what direction nao's development should be. And even when akiyama did most of the jobs his plan wouldn't really work if nao wasn't the one trying to lie everyone successfully and the ending result was purely her decision since akiyama only wanted to win but never cared deeply about other players.
確かに秋山並みの頭脳を期待するのは無理だしおかしいよな。今回の話で奈緒の成長の方向性がはっきりしたと思う。秋山がメインで動いても、奈緒がみんなを上手く騙せなきゃ計画は成立しなかったし、最終的な結果は彼女自身の判断だしね。秋山は勝ちたいだけで他のプレイヤーには無関心だったから。普通くん
21shadesofsavage
i agree. she's finally shaping up well to complement akiyama. still i was wondering how she'd get out of the bind by herself. but the strat had always been bring akiyama, which was a bit disappointing
同意だ。彼女はようやく秋山と対をなすに相応しい器へと成長しつつある。されど、己の力で窮地を脱する術はあるのか、我が魂は常に問い続けていた。だが、その戦略の本質は常に秋山を召喚するというもの——そこに一抹の物足りなさを覚えるのだ。中二病
hellomelody312
i mean considering all of these players will go to the next round to keep playing there should be some values from nao's decision to make the other players potentially less harmful so that akiyama would get less stress from saving her lmao, not sure about fukunaga tho
確かに、プレイヤー全員が次のラウンドに進むことを考えると、直の判断で他のプレイヤーを危険じゃなくしておくのはある意味価値あるかもね。そうすれば秋山が彼女を助けるストレスが減るしな笑。でも福永に関してはどうかな。普通くん
FarCritical
The look in Miura's eyes as he took in his return on investment for his small act of compassion was beautiful. I like that even Akiyama looked satisfied and even a little proud of Nao for that gesture. Fukunaga got off a little too easy though.
三浦が小さな優しさのリターンを実感した時の目がマジで美しかったンゴwww 秋山もナオの行動に満足げでちょっと誇らしそうだったのが好きやわ。でもフクナガはちょっと許されすぎやろ。2ちゃん
Emi_Ibarazakiii
Fukunaga got off a little too easy though. When they made Miura the loser, I thought Akiyama wanted Fukunaga in future games just to annihilate her better hah. (I guess I'm more cruel/vengeful than the Nao/Akiyama pairing!)
フクナガはちょっと甘すぎたよな。ミウラを敗者にした時、アキヤマが今後のゲームでフクナガをより完璧に叩き潰すために残したんだと思ったわ(どうやら俺はナオ&アキヤマコンビより残酷で執念深いらしい笑)。考察くん
Shantotto11
Hol up now. It could be both. Let’s not count our boy out just yet.
ちょっと待って。両方の可能性あるんじゃない?まだ彼を諦めるのは早いと思うよ。普通くん
Animegamingnerd
I gotta wonder if the exact opposite thing happens of what Fukunaga is internally monologing about, ends becoming a running gag. Because I swear it keeps happening to them.
フクナガの心の中の独白と真逆のことが起きてるんちゃうか?それでネタになってるンゴwww だってマジで毎回そうやもん。2ちゃん
abandoned_idol
I'd trust Fukunaga with my life!
フクナガなら命預けられるわ!普通くん
Ultramarinus
Nao, I owe you an apology, I wasn’t familiar with your liar game.
ナオ、謝るわ。お前のライアーゲーム、ワイが知らんかったンゴwww2ちゃん
heyo-heya
New favorite comment 😭
新しいお気に入りのコメント見つけたわ😭普通くん
thisisdropd
原文
Not even businesses could get as brazen with price gouging as Akiyama did. The inflation rate had gone through the roof. It’s ingenious how a single stratagem turned things around and allowed Nao & Akiyama to assume full control of the contestants’ fates. I noticed that Miura’s by far the kindest towards Nao when she’s rock bottom so it came as a surprise when she made him the loser. Then, it turned out that by booting him out she in fact freed him from the shackles of the Liar Game. Truly the most wonderful gift one could give. It’s refreshing to see Nao shine when she’d been a butt-monkey for pretty much the entire run. That speech purely came from deep within her heart, Akiyama had no role in that.
企業すらも躊躇するような価格吊り上げを秋山はやってのけたな。インフレ率は天井知らずだった。一つの策略で流れを変え、奈央と秋山が参加者の命運を掌握したのは見事というほかない。注目すべきは三好——彼は奈央がどん底にいる時、最も優しく接していた人物だ。だからこそ、彼を敗者にしたのは意外だった。しかし、彼を脱落させることで実はライアーゲームの呪縛から解放していたのだ。これ以上ない贈り物と言える。奈央がずっとコケにされていた立場から輝きを取り戻した瞬間は清々しかった。あのスピーチは彼女の心の奥底から湧き出たもので、秋山の関与は一切ない。考察くん
Frontier246
原文
Akiyama kind of took over the game but honestly seeing him enjoying watching everyone squirm and desperate for votes (especially Fukunaga) was very satisfying. But even if Akiyama helped her win, Nao found a resolve to play Liar Game for herself and a reason for her to be in it in a way only someone like her could. Maybe the way someone should have seen the game the entire time. Although now she has to take that character development and hopefully use it effectively in the third game.
秋山がゲームを掌握した感じだったけど、正直みんなが必死に票を求めてジタバタするのを(特にフクナガ)楽しんでる様子がすごく見てて気持ちよかった。でも秋山が勝たせてくれたとはいえ、奈緒は自分なりの方法でライアーゲームをやる決意と、自分が参加する理由を見つけたんだよね。多分、最初からそういう風にゲームを見るべきだったのかもしれない。とはいえ、このキャラ成長を第三ゲームでちゃんと活かしてほしいところだな。普通くん
mads_zero
Because of the half-your-winnings drop out fee the LGT Office imposes, the best way to make money is actually to lose without being in debt, it's beautifully counterintuitive. I love Applied Game Theory And Mathematics: The Manga: The Anime .
LGT事務所が賞金の半分持ってくルールのおかげで、実は借金せずに負けるのが一番稼げるってのがな…逆説的すぎて草生えるわ。応用ゲーム理論と数学:ザ・マンガ:ザ・アニメ、ガチで好きやわ。2ちゃん
resphere
I thought about this a bit and there might be more to that, if there is any game unlike the second game where it was a winner takes all scenario, but more like the first game where you could control the amount of winnings, then it should possible to have the winner also come out with zero winnings and is able to freely drop out by paying zero yen as the dropout fee.
なるほど、考えてみたんだけど、もし第二回戦みたいな勝者総取り方式じゃなくて、第一回戦みたいに賞金を調整できるゲームなら、勝者が賞金ゼロで終えて、脱落料もゼロ円で自由に辞められるって可能性もあるかもね。普通くん
kerorobot
the thing Nao did right is borrow enough she got in the lead but also putting everyone vote around the same amount thus creating a rat race to the bottom. if one person doesn't take her deal the plan wouldn't be able to take off.
直のやったこと正解やったな。リード取れるくらい借金した上で、全員の票を同じくらいに揃えて底辺競争に持ち込んだんや。一人でも彼女の提案断ったら計画は成立しなかったンゴwww2ちゃん
need2put_awayl0ndry
I was LOL at his shit-eating grin during the price gauging, he looked so pleased with himself lmao
値段吊り上げてる時のあのドヤ顔が最高に笑えたわw自分にご満悦って感じで草普通くん
FoolingFinality
To beat the game of liars, you just need to be truthful and honest, what an ironic statement.
「嘘つきのゲームに勝つには正直で誠実であれ」って台詞、皮肉すぎるッ!感情くん
HolyDragSwd2500
Honesty is the best policy
正直が一番だよね。普通くん
Shantotto11
*Honesty
ガチで正直すぎて草2ちゃん
Spytrever
Always a good day when Nao shines!
直人が輝く日はいつだっていい日だね!普通くん
Frontier246
I like how she called everyone out for not listening to her but then turned the entire game around on its head. She's finally acting like a proper main character! Even Akiyama seemed proud at the end!
ふむ、彼女が皆の話を聞かぬ非を叱りつつ、見事に試合の流れをひっくり返したのは見事でござるな。ようやく主人公らしい振る舞いを見せ申した!秋山も最後には誇らしげにしておった!武士
thisisdropd
They’re fortunate that she’s a softie. She could’ve let them (bar Miura) rot in hell for their abysmal treatment of her.
草、あいつらホンマに運が良かったな。ミウラ以外は地獄で腐ってろって思ってもおかしくなかったのに、彼女が甘すぎただけやんwww2ちゃん
abandoned_idol
Nao is playing the long game, don't trust that witch.
ナオは長期戦狙ってるだけだぞ、あの魔女を信じるなッ!感情くん
DugACCat
A very good episode for her, but I still think she’s too gullible. I do like her virtue and attempt to be honest even in a liar’s game. But she needs to be better at realizing when unscrupulous people are tricking her. Without her partner she’d never make it this far. Good thing she found him when she did.
今週のエピソードは彼女のターンやったな。でもワイ的にはまだ騙されやすすぎるンゴねwww
正直であろうとする姿勢は好きやけど、LIAR GAMEでそれはガチで危ないやろ。
悪質な奴に引っかかるの気づけるようにならんと。
パートナーがいなかったらここまで来れてへんわ。
あのタイミングで出会えて良かったな。2ちゃん
BubblyCrash
True, she needs Akiyama to balance her out and guard against malicious deceivers, but she's slowly learning how to be wise in the games.
確かに、彼女には秋山がバランス取る存在として必要だし悪質な詐欺師から守ってもらうのも大事だけど、ゲームの中で少しずつ賢くなってるんだよね。普通くん
DugACCat
That’s true, it was a much appreciated improvement, and getting an in-game theory to reinforce her posture makes her much more interesting and less irksome to watch.
せやな、あの改善はガチでありがたかったわ。ゲーム内理論で彼女のスタンスを補強したおかげで、見ててイライラせんくなったし、キャラがめっちゃ面白くなったンゴwww2ちゃん
Business-Counter211
she already forgave someone who said f you to her terminal cancer father in round 1. compared to that no one this round is trash enough to buy nao's wrath
1ラウンド目で父親の末期がんに対して「くたばれ」って言った奴を許してたしな。それに比べれば今回のメンバーは、なお怒らせるほどクズじゃないと思うよ普通くん
Shantotto11
Nao really is sunao… Wait wrong anime. 😋
ナオってほんと素直だよね…って違うアニメじゃん!笑ギャル
melindypants
Finally! I wasn't sold by the last episode but this one was beautiful - go get em Nao!
やっと来た!前回はピンと来なかったけど、今回は綺麗だったな。頑張れなお!普通くん
FLorianGran
Nao's been slandered by fans for 10 episodes, but I think this is where it becomes clear why she's the protagonist
ナオが10話もファンにdisられてたけど、ここでようやく主人公たる所以が分かるってワケやな。草2ちゃん
Frontier246
Even the main "villain" basically summed up how fans thought of her up until this moment lol.
メインの"悪役"ですら、今までファンが彼女をどう思ってたかを要約してたのが笑えるわ。普通くん
FoolingFinality
Fukunaga is really the one saying that Nao would have gone to others with the same pitch, while she had done this twice, which shows how foolish the others are, but then again, Nao had the reputation of an honest, naive girl, so I would let them pass just this time.
福永の「ナオは同じ話を持ちかけてたはず」って指摘、彼女が実際に2回も同じ手法でやってるからこそ、他の参加者たちの愚かさが浮き彫りになるな。ただ、ナオには“正直で純真な女の子”って評判が確立してたから、今回は大目に見てもいいか。この辺りの人間心理の描き方が絶妙だと思う。考察くん
BubblyCrash
the other players weren't foolish for making the deal. Fukunaga just didn't know that Nao offered them 70 million (all of her M-ticket money at the time) for the 10 votes. It was reasonable for the other players to assume that they were the only one Nao dealt with, because she would have no money left over to offer anyone else.
他のプレイヤーたちが取引に応じたのは馬鹿げたことじゃないよ。福永は奈央が当時持っていたMチケットの全額7000万円で10票を買ったって知らなかっただけ。他のプレイヤーたちは自分だけが奈央と取引したと思い込むのも当然だよね。だって彼女には他に誰かにオファーできる残金なんて残ってなかったはずだから。普通くん
Frontier246
Fukunaga getting bamboozled and suffering through the same @#$% she pulled was really satisfying. She's lucky Nao is a better woman, on all fronts.
フクナガがまんまと引っかかって、自分がやったのと同じクソみたいな目に遭うのめっちゃスッキリしたわッ!ナオが全方位でマシな人間でよかったな、あの女は。感情くん
Emi_Ibarazakiii
原文
which shows how foolish the others are, but then again, Nao had the reputation of an honest, naive girl, so I would let them pass just this time. I do NOT give them a pass hah; Nao literally just did the "I'll secretly deal with you all" to them... They were 100% foolish to buy votes from her(Akiyama) without a guarantee they wouldn't sell to the others as well! Of course the others would buy votes too. So buying 2 votes and them buying 2 votes means we're still at the exact same point, only with less money. There is zero reason to buy votes unless you have a reason to believe the others won't. (A deal with the others, or a contract with Nao, etc)
他の連中がどれだけバカかよくわかるよ。でも直は正直で純真な娘って評判だったし、今回は大目に見てやるか。いや、やっぱ許せないわ(笑)。直はまさに「こっそりお前ら全員始末してやる」ってやつをやったんだからな…他の連中にも売らない保証もないのに、直(秋山)から票を買うなんて100パーセントバカだろ!もちろん他の連中も票を買うに決まってる。結局2票買って向こうも2票買えば、金が減っただけで何も変わらない。他の連中が買わないと確信できる理由がない限り、票を買う意味はゼロだよ(相手との取り決めや直との契約とかね)。普通くん
Cyouni
There is zero reason to buy votes unless you have a reason to believe the others won't. (A deal with the others, or a contract with Nao, etc) While technically true, not buying votes while in last place leaves you as the guaranteed loser, if everyone else does. Which is a problem all on its own...
確かに票を買わない理由はないと言えるが、ここで重要なのは「他人が買わないと信じる根拠」の有無だ。最終位で買わなければ、他全員が買った場合に敗北が確定する——このジレンマ自体がゲーム設計の巧妙な伏線だと思われる。つまり、単なる損得計算ではなく、心理的駆け引きと信頼の崩壊が物語の核になっていると考察できる。考察くん
Emi_Ibarazakiii
原文
not buying votes while in last place leaves you as the guaranteed loser, if everyone else does True, but that's misleading; Let's look at it like a Prisoner dilemma thing; Option A) You don't buy votes. If the others buy votes: You lose. (with 70 million yen) If the others don't buy votes: You lose (with 70 million yen) Option B) You buy votes If the others buy votes: You lose (with 0 yen) If the others don't buy votes: You win (with 0 yen) Of all these scenario, there is only ONE that is beneficial to you; Buying votes while the others don't buy them. Everything else is negative. So to believe that buying votes is a positive, you need to know the others won't buy votes. Becuase if they do, buying votes doesn't make you win, it only makes you lose 70m for no reason. That's why I was saying that he should NOT buy votes unless he has guarantees. If he does not have such guarantees, then the expected outcome is that the others will buy votes too (For the same reason he did) and so he will lose again AND be 70m deeper in the hole.
最下位で票を買わなければ確実に負けるって話だけど、囚人のジレンマ的に考えよう。A) 票を買わない→他が買えば負け(7000万持って)、他が買わなくても負け(やっぱり7000万持って)。B) 票を買う→他が買えば負け(0円)、他が買わなければ勝ち(0円)。この中で得するのは「自分だけ買って他が買わない」パターンだけ。それ以外は全部マイナス。つまり票を買うのが得だと信じるには、他が買わない確証が必要。もし他も買ったら、7000万無駄に失うだけだからね。だから確証がない限り買うべきじゃないって言ってたんだよ。確証がないなら、みんな同じ理由で買うから、結局負けてさらに7000万の借金が増えるだけ。普通くん
Cyouni
Of all these scenario, there is only ONE that is beneficial to you; Buying votes while the others don't buy them. Everything else is negative. Erm, the problem is you have just proven that the only scenario with a positive outcome is to buy votes.
このシナリオの中で、君にとって有利な展開はたった一つだけだ——他の誰も買収しない中で、自分だけ票を買うこと。それ以外はすべてマイナスに働く。つまり、君が証明したのは「票を買うことだけがポジティブな結果をもたらす唯一の選択肢」という点だ。この構造を分析すると、ゲーム理論的に言って、相互不信が前提なら買収が支配戦略になり得るのが興味深い。考察くん
Emi_Ibarazakiii
原文
... while the others don't buy them That's kind of a KEY part you're ommitting. Hypothetical: Scenario A: You lose $1000. Scenario B: You open a mystery box that has a random number written inside from 1 to 1000000000000000000000000000, and if the number is 1297571347961379, you win 1 million $. Otherwise you lose 1 million $ instead of $1000. The only positive outcome is you opening the box and finding 1297571347961379 . So, do you open the box? Of course not; Because the number is almost guaranteed to NOT be 1297571347961379, and you'll lose 1 million $. The best move for you is to do nothing and accept that you're losing $1000. It's negative, but not as negative as what happens if you open the box and you (likely) lose. In this scenario, yes the only positive is "buying votes", but ONLY if the others don't buy votes; If the others buy votes, you should NOT buy votes. Because it won't change anything other than you both lose more money, and you're still the loser. So before buying votes, you have to ask yourself one question: How likely is it that other people buy votes? And if it's likely, you should NOT buy them. Without a guaranteed/contract, I'd say the odds of them buying votes are roughly... 100% .
他の人が買わないって前提が抜けてるよね。それが重要なポイントだよ。例えば、A:1000ドル失う。B:数字が書かれた箱を開けて、特定の数字なら100万ドル獲得、それ以外なら100万ドル失う。君は箱を開けるか?もちろん開けない。ほぼ確実に負けるからね。最善は何もしないで1000ドルの損失を受け入れること。この場合「票を買う」のが唯一のプラスになるのは、他の人が買わない時だけ。もし他の人が買うなら、君も買うべきじゃない。金を失うだけで状況は変わらないから。だから票を買う前に考えるべきは「他の人が買う可能性は?」ってこと。それが高いなら買わない方がいい。保証がない限り、その確率はほぼ100%だと思うよ。普通くん
Cyouni
Counterpoint: except your plus/minus in this case is being $2m in debt (and having a loan shark immediately collecting on you) vs $3m. At a point where you're already that far down, you need to push for the option to not.
反論させてほしい。今回のプラス・マイナスは「200万ドルの借金(しかも借金取りが即回収に来る)」と「300万ドル」の比較だ。ここまで追い詰められた時点で、負けない選択肢を取るしかないという考察ができる。考察くん
kenji25
原文
its seller market where buyer have no negotiation rights at this point, buyer either buy the vote with no string attached or lose. The three could form a pact to not buying unless buyer add the not selling to other clause, but there bound to be at least one person out of the three to buckle, because why would you insist seller not selling to other players and join the other two to lose when it cost you nothing (you are only returning the 70mil yen) to join other winners? the other two could lose if they want while you proceed with no loss.
今の状況、完全に売り手市場やん。買い手側に交渉権なんてなくて、無条件で票買うか負けるかしかないわ。3人で「売るな条項付けないなら買わない」って同盟組んでも、絶対1人は折れるやろ。だって他の勝ち組に加わって70億返すだけで自分はノーリスクなのに、なんでわざわざ売るなって主張して負け組に付き合う必要あんねん。他の2人が負けたいなら勝手に負けとけ、ワイは損せず進むわってなるンゴwww2ちゃん
Emi_Ibarazakiii
原文
its seller market where buyer have no negotiation rights at this point But it's not... That's the point; If the buyers stand pat, ONE of the others loses. Meanwhile, Nao and Akiyama have to pay hundreds of millions for all these contracts they signed. Who's getting screwed? If you had to pick between "A small % chances to lose 100 million" (the buyers), or "100% chance to lose 500 million" (Nao/Akiyama) which would you pick? If the buyers team up and don't budge, Nao and Akiyama HAVE to budge; Otherwise they're gonna be the biggest losers, EVEN if they win the game! ONE loser will be in debt. 7 winners will be in the clear (and will still be owed money from Nao, so they're in the black) Nao will be 500 million in debt. So between these two groups of people, which would you like to be in? The group of "7 winners with 70m owned to them, + 1 loser"? Or the "Nao 500 million in debt" group? If the buyers don't budge, Nao is SCREWED on account of paying so much to buy all their votes. Nao will be BEGGING THEM to buy her votes back. Nao's the one who has to blink here... Not them. Yes, 1 out of 8 guys is in trouble if they don't buy. But 1 out of 1 Nao is in MAJOR trouble. But again: The main point is that if you buy votes because you're about to lose, and then the other guy buys votes because he's about to lose, you're STILL about to lose. Only you're also 70 million poorer. So what's the point of buying votes, if you don't have guarantees that others won't buy them as well? Would you rather lose the game with 70 million, or would you rather lose the game with 0? Because if you don't have assurances that other people won't do the same thing you did, buying votes does not make you win, it only makes you lose with less money in your pocket.
これは売り手市場で、買い手側には交渉の余地がない状況に見えるが、実際はそうではない。ポイントはここだ——買い手側が動かなければ、買い手グループのうち1人が脱落する。一方、直と秋山は結んだ契約で数億円を支払う羽目になる。誰が痛い目を見るか?「1億円を失う確率が低い」(買い手側)か、「5億円を確実に失う」(直と秋山)のどちらを選ぶ?買い手側が団結して譲らなければ、直と秋山は譲らざるを得ない。そうしなければ、ゲームに勝っても最大の敗者になるからだ。1人の敗者が借金を背負い、7人の勝者は無傷で、直から金を受け取れる(黒字)。直は5億円の借金。この2グループのどちらに属したい?「7人の勝者(各7000万円受け取り)+1人の敗者」か、「直の5億円借金」か。買い手側が動かなければ、直は票を買い占めた代償で詰む。直は彼らに票を買い戻してもらうよう懇願するだろう。ここで折れるのは直の方だ。買い手側ではない。確かに、買い手側の8人のうち1人は買わなければピンチだが、直は1人で大ピンチ。しかし繰り返すが、核心はこれだ——負けそうだから票を買い、相手も負けそうだから票を買ったとしても、結局負ける。しかも7000万円貧しくなる。票を買っても、他者が同じ行動をしない保証がなければ、何考察くん
kenji25
原文
If the buyers stand pat, ONE of the others loses. If I, you and fukunaga is three person with the lowest votes, I would easily pay the 70 mils. from my pov I win and stay in the game and there's no consequences, what would you do after I buy the votes? punch me? Meanwhile you and fukunaga are free to standby your "not paying unless buyer not selling to other's" rules and either you or fukunaga would lose.(the more likely scenario is fukunaga stab you in the back by buying/getting votes somehow and you lose) Akiyama/Nao certainly won't budge with the "no selling" rules else they have no course to recover 420mils. You are 100% confirmed to be that one of the others that loses with debt.
買い手が動かなければ、他の誰か1人が脱落するんだよね。俺とあなたとフクナガの3人が最下位だった場合、俺は70ミル払うのは簡単だと思う。自分の立場からすると勝ち残れるし、何のペナルティもない。俺が票を買った後でどうする?殴るか?その間、あなたとフクナガは「買い手が他に売らない限り払わない」ルールを貫いても、どちらかが脱落するだけだよ(むしろフクナガが裏切って票を買うか何かで、あなたが負ける可能性が高い)。アキヤマとナオは「売らない」ルールを絶対に曲げないだろうし、そうしないと420ミルを取り戻せない。あなたは間違いなく借金を抱えて脱落する側の人間だよ。普通くん
Emi_Ibarazakiii
原文
If I, you and fukunaga is three person with the lowest votes, I would easily pay the 70 mils. from my pov I win and stay in the game and there's no consequences Just wondering, I don't know if you play chess or any similar game, but when you make a move do you think "This good move, I make it!" or do you think "If I move that, he'll do that, so it's bad for me"? You seem to think the strategy ends at "What I do"... Do you consider "What OTHERS will do"? If "buying votes because you're currently losing" is the right move to do, what do you imagine the next guy to become the loser will do? ...Buy votes because he's currently losing? I'm not sure where the disconnect is, to be honest; Here's an example; You have 38 votes and 70 millions. Bob has 39 votes and 70 millions. Joe has 40 votes and 70 millions. You go "OH NO, I'M LOSING! I HAVE TO SPEND 70 MILLIONS TO BUY 2 VOTES!" You now have 40 votes and 0 $. Bob sees your vote total, and goes "OH NO, I'M LOSING! I HAVE TO SPEND 70 MILLIONS TO BUY 2 VOTES!" Bob now has 41 votes and 0 $. Joe sees Bob's votes total, and goes "OH NO, I'M LOSING! I HAVE TO SPEND 70 MILLIONS TO BUY 2 VOTES!" Joe now has 42 votes and 0 $. Please explain to me how the situation has improved for either you or Bob. And tell me what the next step of the strategy is, now that you're still losing and you don't have your 70 millions anymore. I'm not sure how else to say it, but that's exactly why I said Buying votes doesn't help if others buy them too . You are in the EXACT same scenario as before, only you lost 70 millions. To achieve what? You seem to start from the premise of "Oh no I'm losing I have to do something about it!" but if that "something" STILL makes you the loser, and it costs 70 millions... Is this a good strategy? Your strategy relies on "Well maybe the others will not do literally the exact thing I did?"... In chess they would call that "hope chess" (playing bad moves in the hope that your opponent will play an even worse move so you can win). And it's not a winning strategy.
草、ガチで論破されててワロタwww
ワイの考え:
- 確かに「買収ゲーム」やったら全員が同じことするだけやん
- 結果:全員0円、順位変わらず、ただ金消えただけやんwww
- つまり「今負けてるから買う」って戦略、将棋で言う「希望的観測」やん
- 相手も同じ手を打つ前提なら、ワイの行動はただの無駄金やんか
- お前の例え(38票→40票、0円)完全に理解したンゴ
- 要は「買うだけでは解決にならん」ってことやな
- 次の手考えろや、って話やね
せやな、ワイが間違ってたわ。買収は一時しのぎに過ぎんってことか…草www2ちゃん
Cyouni
The problem with comparing it to hope chess is you're already in M-3.
確かにホープチェスと比べるのは無理があるよね。もう詰み寸前の状態だし。普通くん
Rajok99
原文
70m for the 10 votes doesn't exist unless Nao wants it to even if she had the money. Breaching a contract is -100m, Nao has the option to never fulfill her side of the 70m deal and take a 100m penalty instead with the addition of being able to choose whoever she wants to lose an additional 100m if they don't play along. "I will put you specifically into an additional 100m debt right now if you don't buy these votes" (On top of their already ~105m? debt)
70mで10票って、ナオがその気にならなきゃ成立しないやろ。仮に金があってもな。契約違反は-100mやから、ナオは70mの話を反故にしてペナルティの100m払う道を選べるんや。しかも相手が従わなきゃ追加で100m負わせる権利もある。「今すぐこの票買わなきゃ、お前だけ追加で100m借金させるぞ」って脅せるわけや。(既に約105mの借金ある状態でな)2ちゃん
BosuW
Logically, this would be the reasonable choice. The market only moves if someone is the first to push the snowball. ...and yet look at stock markets today and tell me mfs wouldn't
論理的にはそれが合理的な選択だよね。誰かが最初に雪玉を転がさないと市場は動かない。……でも今の株式市場を見てみろよ、連中がそれをしないって言えるか?普通くん
Joji1000
原文
Interesting, so it is going down this route! In an earlier episode I commented something along the lines of how the scheme would collapse if the wealth was redistributed at the end of each game, I thought the Liars game profited from the debt interest but I missed it was actually from dropping out of the game. If Nao and Akiyama work through the game to redistribute the winnings then this would be actual peak, Nao's characterization is finally paying off
おお、こっちのルート来たんか!
前のエピソードで「ゲーム終了時に金を再分配したら計画崩れるやろ」って書いたんやけど、ワイはてっきり借金の利息で稼いでると思ってたンゴ。実際はゲーム脱落が儲けの元やったんやな。
ナオとアキヤマが勝ち金を再分配しながら進むなら、これガチで最高やん。ナオのキャラ付けがついに報われた感じやな。2ちゃん
Frontier246
The Liar's Game is a suckers' game unless you're playing it for the sake of someone else.
LIAR GAMEは他人のためにやるんじゃなきゃバカを見るゲームだよな。普通くん
Tapwater_enthusiast
Most importantly, next time: Contraband game
次回は「禁制品ゲーム」やろな
これが一番大事やわ
ワクワクするンゴwww2ちゃん
-Ajaxx-
painful season cliffhanger incoming
次のシーズンでクリフハンガー来るのしんどすぎるッ!感情くん
Tapwater_enthusiast
I've read somewhere that this season is supposed to be 24 episodes, so no
どこかで今期は全24話って聞いたんだけど、そうなの?普通くん
-Ajaxx-
excellent news to wake up to, hadn't heard, cheers
やばっ!起きてすぐこのニュース見れたのまじラッキー!全然知らなかったんだけど、さんきゅー!ギャル
Choice-Form-9085
Yes!!
そうだね!!普通くん
Timewhilewaiting
The anime is about to get so crazy, everyone buckle up
アニメこれからガチで狂い始めるやんwww みんなシートベルトしとけよ2ちゃん
Tapwater_enthusiast
I know, this is gonna be an all-timer anime arc for me
確かに、これは俺の中で殿堂入りするアニメアークになりそうだな普通くん
Ashteron
Akiyama teaching the rest of the players about scalping is such a treat to watch.
アキヤマが他のプレイヤーにダフ屋行為教えてるシーン、マジで草生えるわwww2ちゃん
HolyDragSwd2500
Nao gang rising
ナオ派、集まれッ!!感情くん
Frontier246
Been a 10 episode origin story of turning her into a liar and someone who can actually play the game how it was meant to be played.
10話かけて彼女を嘘つきに仕立て上げ、ゲームを本来のやり方でプレイできるようにするオリジンストーリーだったね。普通くん
BosuW
It's time for Nao stonks inflation
ナオ株、爆上がりすぎィ!📈💥感情くん
mrsomeuser
NAO GANG RISE UP
ナオギャル集まれー!🔥ギャル
heyo-heya
I’m here! 🫡
着ました! 🫡普通くん
Shantotto11
Rising of the Honest Hero
「正直者の英雄上昇」とかいうタイトル草
ワイ「正直者」って聞いて逆張りかと思ったンゴwww2ちゃん
HolyDragSwd2500
Nao character development and her saving everyone from the Liar game CONTRBAND GAME 🫶
まじで奈央の成長エグくない!?みんなをLIAR GAME CONTRABAND GAMEから救うシーンやばすぎて泣いたわ🫶ギャル
Frontier246
原文
Nao is now in control of the board with the most votes! It's her game to win and now everyone is left begging HER for votes, and Akiyama is going to make the most of it. Ah yes, Akiyama is Nao's "possession," I guess that's one way to describe their relationship. Not a bad guy to own, eh Nao? Thus begins the the "selling Nao's votes" game! Where players pay to get as many votes from Nao as possible as Akiyama keeps raising the cost for the votes and the players are too desperate not to pay them. Now FUKUNAGA is the one desperate for Nao's votes! How the tables have turned! Sato tried his best to pull a fast one but you can't out-swindle Akiyama, so he ends up begging for votes too. The game began with a pitch meeting and it ended with a pitch meeting...only to end in a brawl. But Nao has had it. No one would listen to her when they started this and she has no intention of listening to them. Not when she casts the last vote and holds someones' fate in her hands. And so everyone reacts to them making it through...even Sato, who managed to outlast everybody surprisingly enough! Even Fukunaga made it. But what about poor Miura? But that's the thing: Miura was the ONLY one who treated Nao with any kindness and empathy and she realized something about Liar Game. That the real winners are the ones who keep playing and help other people get out in a game where people in their desperation and greed keep playing to the organizations' hands. Because the only way the organization wins is if people keep paying them back to get out. But what if someone, like Nao, thought of someone else and bought THEM out while still playing? That's why she saves Miura and that's why she helps everyone else out. Because despite everything she's a good and honest person. Well, no surprise Leronira thought she was just really stupid (because she kind of is) but now Nao has his attention. Even the crooked lawyer didn't see that coming.
ナオが最多票でボード掌握や!もう彼女のゲームやな、全員がナオに票乞いする展開や。そして秋山がそれを最大限利用するンゴwww 秋山はナオの「所有物」ってか、確かにそんな関係性やな。悪くない所有物やろナオ? ここから「ナオの票売りゲーム」開始や!秋山が票の値段吊り上げまくって、プレイヤーは必死で金払うしかないって構図。福永がナオの票欲しさに土下座してるの草生えるわ!立場逆転やん!佐藤も頑張ったけど秋山には敵わず結局土下座や。開始も終了もプレゼン会議で最後は乱闘ってオチ。でもナオはもう知らん顔や。最初から誰も話聞かんかったし、今度はこっちが聞く義理ない。最後の一票で他人の運命握る立場になったからな。全員通過に驚いてる中、佐藤がまさかの生き残り!福永も通過。でも可哀想な三好は? いや、三好だけがナオに優しくしてた唯一の存在や。そこでナオは気づいたんや「ライアーゲームの真の勝者は、他人を助けながらプレイし続ける者」ってな。組織が勝つのは借金返済で抜けようとするやつだけ。でもナオみたいに他人を買い戻しながら戦う奴が現れたら? だから三好を救い、全員助けたんや。純粋で正直な人間やからな。レロニ2ちゃん
-Ajaxx-
uhh yeah that is a tedious description of the events that occurred. what was the point of this post? you didn't even add reaction, opinion or commentary
うーん、これは起きた出来事をただだらだらと説明してるだけだね。この投稿の意味って何?感想も意見もコメントも全然入ってないじゃん。普通くん
Arzhart
DEFINITELY best episode so far. The strategy of buying and selling points was finally something I couldn't think by myself (i.e while watching, without pausing to think of strategies) and left me shocked. And Nao's way of solving stuff was amazing too
間違いなく現時点で最高のエピソードだった。ポイントの売買戦略は、自分で考えながら観ても思いつかないレベルで、本当に衝撃を受けた。ナオの解決方法も素晴らしかった。考察くん
Gloomy_Savings_7454
You're a good girl, Nao. I would have sunk them all (except Miura).
やばっ、ナオちゃんいい子すぎじゃない!? 私だったらミウラ以外みんな沈めてたわ笑 でもそれがこの子のいいトコなんだよね〜ギャル
heyo-heya
She’s the best girl.
彼女が最高の女の子だね。普通くん
原文