天幕のジャードゥーガル

I really like the idea that Genghis Khan's face is never shown in this anime. Similar to how the Queen is not shown in 007 movies, or Sauron in LOTR, it adds to his god-like aura, as if he is worshipped by the Mongols, and his invincibility. That scene when Dayir performed his ritual and becomes a phoenix (crying) is so perfectly done as if we are watching a movie. Now that the team-up between Sitara/Fatima and Toregene has begun, I wonder about the things our team will come up to create a storm that will affect (?) the Mongol Empire. Women power!

I really like the idea that Genghis Khan's face is never shown in this anime. I completely agree. I don't think this will count as spoilers because Genghis has already died in the show, but I will tag it just to be sure. [Genghis Khan's appearance, historical "spoiler"] Not only does it give him a certain aura, but Genghis Khan’s appearance is historically shrouded in mystery. He never allowed anyone to paint, draw, or sculpt his likeness during his lifetime. Some historians have suggested that this was due to old regional shamanistic beliefs that an accurate depiction of someone could be used to curse them. Now that the team-up between Sitara/Fatima and Toregene has begun, I wonder about the things our team will come up to create a storm that will affect (?) the Mongol Empire. Women power! [Töregene and Fatima's historical relationship and their resentment for their captors] We don’t actually know if Töregene resented the Mongol Empire. However, her close relationship with Fatima is very real, and we can reasonably assume that shared resentment may have been part of what brought them together. [Same subject but contains historical spoilers about possible future plans] We also know that they actively worked against Ögedei, which is the biggest hint that their resentment is not completely fictional. What we're getting here, which is seemingly the two of them conspiring against the Mongol Empire, does make for a really compelling story.

That was a really good episode. I am glad that the Merkit ended up going out in the way they were happiest with, I don't see the men being happy to be slaves for their enemy, and Dayir made sure that the women were given lives they could find happiness with. I thought he was really cool when he told that Mongolian that they are now no longer Mergen, his chief aura was overwhelming the guy lol.  I do like that Toregene ended up falling for Dayir, and I can see why with how conscientious he is. I figured Ogedei was the one that killed him, but the fact that he smiled at her after killing her husband is crazy, no wonder she's so hostile with him. I can't imagine how difficult it was for her to bear his children.  I wonder if Khulan will eventually help with Toregene and Sitara's plan, she did look proud upon learning that her father and his men fought till the end. I'm sure there was sadness and other conflicting emotions, but I can see why she smiled.

Yeah, he looks wise beyond his age and too detached; Toregene may have seen the kill as a cold blooded murder and held that grudge ever since. I'm hoping we'll get to see why Ogedei chose Toregene as one of his wives; what did he see in her? Or was it some sort of repentence / honoring his deal with Dayir? Or was it purely as trophy (doesn't seem to be aligned with his personality so far)? Probably will happen when Ogedei dies by Toregene's hand, as drama would have it lol.

So, yeah, Ogedei (born 1186) was 43 when he was elected Great Khan in 1229. If Toregene is about the same age as him, she should be around 18, give or take one year, when she got married to Dayir and then to Ogedei. Toregene looks too old to be 12-15 even 25 years ago, she was rather big for her age by virtue of being a Naiman aristocrat. Khulan was even younger than her. So, if anything, it was Khulan who was around 12-15 at the time, which, cool fact, places her in the same age cohort as Tolui (b. 1191), Sorghaghtani and Moge (both born circa 1190) who are all in their late 30s by 1229.

I think it's important to distinguish between the Mongol leader's attitude towards the people around them, and their enemies. I posted this in last week's discussion thread but I think it summarises what we know about Ögedei's character pretty well, If I may say so myself: If you feel like Ögedei seems unusually kind by Mongol khan standards: [Ögedei described as a historical person] Ögedei was known for being good-natured, generous, and jovial compared to many other Mongol conquerors. He was described as a charismatic and carefree leader who showed kindness to those around him and freely gave away wealth. Despite his more redeeming qualities, he still oversaw ruthless conquests and was responsible for the deaths of countless people and the destruction of their homes. [about the quoted text with historical "spoilers"] If anything, from a historical perspective, I think Ögedei is being a bit too kindhearted in the way he speaks about his enemies.

He killed a man in front of his wife and then took the angry widow as his own bride. This woman then bore him children despite the fact she despises him and makes no secret of it. To me he’s a great example of someone at the very top of a social hierarchy who considers that hierarchy as righteous, or the result of some natural law, despite knowing the harm it causes people. He’s the kind of guy to go “alas, it is what it is” as he rapes a woman clearly trying to explode him with her mind.

i don't think her wikipedia page is accurate. Genghis Khan himself did not attack India. The wikipedia page mentions that 1215 was her death year, yet it also mentions that "she was the only empress accompanying him [Genghis Khan] on many campaigns, notably the western campaign against the Khwarezmid Empire". The Khwarezmian campaign only started in the year 1219. Furthurmore, if her listed birth and death dates were to be believed, it would put her at 2 years younger than Genghis Khan himself. It seems that Khulan's historical records were sparse, and no one really knows her full story.

My interpretation of Khulan’s smile was different, I don’t think she felt proud, but more because she’s Genghis Khan’s wife now, she isn’t allowed to grief over her family or lament Ögedei for killing her dad. She agreed to be married into mongol and be Genghis Khan’s wife despite being much younger than him (Genghis Khan is probably around 40+ at that time, Khulan’s still barely a teenager) just so that her family and tribe could be released from their feud and live, only to have the men rebelling and dying either way. She was in so much pain, but at that moment she’s well aware that she’s Genghis Khan’s wife, she’s not allowed to grief anymore as Dayir’s daughter, so she could only mask her pain like that.

Not sure about the weird nature, but more about the impermanence of the human condition, especially in chaotic times when the your entire life could have been ripped apart many times in a lifetime. Certainly a strange thing when seen from the lens of history- Toregene was unhappy in her early life as a Merkit until events which happened and changed her perspective into accepting the Merkits' way of life. That perspective change didn't happen however for her second life as a Mongol, or rather, she struggled on one hand into accepting the Mongols, on another to remember her vengeance. This is setting up to a future encounter against Khulan- oh the ironies of fate!

I think its that the change didn't come violently and the result was (somewhat) predictable. Compare that to the Mongols who could do any number of brutal things to you, especially as a woman. I think Khulan would challenge their ideas that their culture is better than the Mongols. She was depressed about her womanhood preventing her from doing certain things in the Merkit tribe but now has more influence as a mongol. I don't think she'll LIKE the Mongols, but she wont be acting like the Merkits were any better.

For those interested, the Merkits kidnapping Chinggis Khaan’s first wife Borte (roughly 30-40 years before the events of the flashback) was what spurred him on to create an army in the first place, asking the aid of his Blood Brother Jamukha and his patron Tooril Khan (who was Blood Brother to his father Yesugei) to recapture his wife. Before this he was not very high ranking nor had many followers. His success against the Merkits would be the beginning of his eventual ascent to become the Great Khan.

Temüjin was not an ordinary commoner. He was the son of Yesügei, a prominent Mongol chieftain and warrior who had his own followers, alliances, and enemies. After Yesügei’s death, Temüjin’s family lost much of their former support and fell into poverty. But he also already had connections and a developing political position before the Merkit episode. His marriage to Börte was connected to his family’s existing relationships, and he had an alliance with Toghrul (Ong Khan) and a sworn-brother relationship with Jamukha. Moreover, Temüjin had already begun building his own following before the Merkit attack.

I like the symbolism of the last moment. Her whole life, Töregene was always the person who didn't know anything. She didn't know why she was married to the Merkit. She didn't know about the conflict. She didn't know about Dayir's plan and she didn't know why Khulan smiled. And now she probably doesn't know most of the things going on in the mongol camp either. She was always living in a state of "unknowing" and that definitely affected her experience. Because while she started to like her life with Dayir and the Merkits, it made her powerless as well since she could never do anything to help. And once she learned about things, it was always too late. But now she has Sitara at her side, who self proclaims that she is knowledgeable about all kinds of things and can therefore, for the first time in her life, give Töregene the ability to use her power (and maybe other abilities) to make the life go the way she wants and not how the people around her want.

There is an interesting second side to that, in that the "Merkit women have nothing to do with the Merkits anymore" excuse only works because they were told absolutely nothing about the planned rebellion. They couldn't have possibly aided it, even if it was by doing nothing, because the choice was never given to them. But that saved their lives. Now Töregene has knowledge, yes, and knowledge is power. But also, with power comes responsibility. Now that she will be able to actually make choices, she will have to shoulder the weight of her life, Sitara's, anyone they chose to condemn or elevate, and anyone who becomes colateral damage. I'm very excited to see how Sitara and Töregene will evolve going down this thorny path!

This is an interesting point I agree. Especially considering that Tolui's wife is also not naive, this can result in dangerous situations that Töregene has to navigate properly. With the question if they can and want to make her an ally or not (though that would mean they help Tolui as well which might conflict with their revenge goal). In general, I am also interested to see who if either of the two women will start to think ahead for what comes after their revenge. Because sure, for now, that is their goal. And it's probably a bit early to even think about what you want to do later. But both of their "clans" are dead so they might have to find a new reason to live beyond their revenge at some point.

I really like the art as well, my only little gripe is that the characters are kind of hard to distinguish in age. Although that is not unusual for anime, these particular models and the cultural unfamiliarity I have with the way different ages are supposed to dress is making it harder for me. I would've thought that Toregene and Chingis Khan's sons were all maybe just a bit older than Sitara, but Toregene and Ogedei are probably around 40 according to this episode.

Why do all these horses have such good lashes? Look at how pretty their lashes are. I find out horses can grow distinguished mustaches today; now my lashes are subpar to horses'. Here are some horses with mustaches . So distinguished! The brutality of it all. Jesus. Oh Khulan 🥺 What a beautiful and poignant episode for Töregene. Dayir’s drumming was so evocative and powerful; I got goosebumps. The red coloring had things look like a trippy aurora too. I understand the Merkit motivation in what was essentially a suicide mission. I’m not all that certain that the Merkit would’ve lived even in honoring the Mongol “forgiveness.” There is no freedom, peace, or “forgiveness” when people are still owning and controlling your life and the lives of others and forcing you away from your land, your people, and your history. But I'm glad Dayir's spirit returned to the skies. Sitara and Töregene are both slaves from different circumstances. And for both of them, they recontextualize their relationships with women whom they loved, who they also saw as slaves. For Sitara, she thought that Zummurud was happy in her life only to have that realization that Zummurud lived a life she never wanted and never would have chosen for herself. For Töregene, she sees Khulan’s smile as she’s now the wife of a Mongol monarch, and she believes Khulan to have betrayed their home and their previous lives. And she later realizes Khulan was forced into a life she had never wanted and was surviving while in pain at turning an eye to the suffering and deaths of her people. I’m so excited for the storm Sitara and Töregene will create together. The only thing that concerns me is if their storms could conflict. As much as it seems like fate that Sitara and Töregene have met, it also feels like this is a setup for something bad to happen between them. Today, I Learned: The Merkit stomping grounds The Merkit lived in the basins of the Selenga and lower Orkhon River (modern south Buryatia and Bulgan Province and Selenge Province in Mongolia). Merikit 🔗 Wikipedia Crane symbolism! The Demoiselle Crane—the crane spirit that Dayir sees—is a symbol of longevity, good fortune, wisdom, prosperity, and traveling between worlds. Citations * Cranes: Mythology and Culture 🔗 KZN Crane Foundation * YouTube . Drumming! Drums are a well-known tool that shamans use in their journey. Their spirit leaves their body to travel between other worlds in the shaman's cosmology. It’s a bit of a trance state. The drums Mongolian shamans call tuurs (or so western sources say). A tuur that doesn’t have the correct features is considered “empty” as that drum cannot communicate with the spirit world when used. Special rituals are needed for their crafting, if they've been damaged, or if the shaman using them has passed away. The characteristics drums require to carry out their responsibilities vary between ethnic groups. Citations * Waking the Drum 🔗 Shaman Drumming * YouTube * Mongolian Music Instruments 🔗 Go Mongolian Tours * Musical Instruments as Paraphernalia of the Shamans in Northern Mongolia 🔗 Academia Edu PDF

I disagree with you regarding the Merkit’s actions at the end. Khulan made an immense personal sacrifice in offering herself as bride to Genghis Khan, but still felt proud as it meant she was able to save the lives of her people. Imagine how she felt afterwards learning that her father and most of the merkits rebelled afterwards and were killed anyway. She probably felt like her entire sacrifice was worthless. Yes it would’ve been incredibly hard for them had they lived as Dayir is right about them being made slaves, but at least Khulan’s sacrifice would’ve meant something and they’d be alive. I actually think Zummurud’s situation supports this. Yes, her situation was worse than she showed to those around her, but she still had a reason to live through her brother being with her. It was after he died that she lost all will to live. I imagine Khulan ended in the same position after her father and Kurutogan both decided to fight and die despite her sacrifice.

Ooo, I like disagreements on interpretations. It makes everything more interesting. Okay. I think the thing is that we really will never know. For we’re both stuck with Tögerene and Sitara who dread the fact that they have misunderstood the actions and smiles of women they loved like family and, for Sitara especially, no longer have an opportunity to clear that air with them. She just has to make presumptions and Zummurud will never be able to tell her story. I really love that Zummurd and Khulan’s smiles haunt our stormy ladies and will haunt us in return. That is so sad but that is great emotional weight and fuckery. I don’t think feelings with both their situations are that binary. You can still find pride in sacrificing yourself for a cause or peace with a circumstance but still wish there had been another way for you to live as you wanted to live. I can see both Zummurd and Khulan making some semblance of peace in how their lives turned out but simultaneously still wishing back for the days where their lives were not in this position. Having your autonomy compromised can inspire very complex feelings and relationships that contradict. I don’t know about with me disagreeing with the Merkit in their actions. I mean—they did do that. They still proceeded with their final battle. Many men are, unfortunately, deceased now and have returned to the skies with their loved ones. But I can understand why they did. And Dayir is clear why they did. But it’s also leaning into many indigenous tribes’ struggles against colonization. I don’t believe all the “forgiven” tribes would’ve had every single tribesman simply accept being enslaved as the better ending for their culture. Would some? I’m sure there were a lot of discussions and debates internally, within different councils and family units. People are diverse! Everyone has a different opinion on matters no matter how big or small. Would all accept that? No. I’d never blame them for it. Being “ alive ” is defined differently for everyone. I know the scientific definition of alive is “still active in existence” (or something like that), but the social perception and criteria of what being alive means is so varied . You may find that the Merkit and others tribes would’ve been alive had they not fought and continued to honor Khulan’s sacrifice. But I disagree that all or many Merkit would’ve considered that. I imagine that is a death sentence, and, potentially , it is an embarrassment that a woman is protecting them. To them, it might not’ve been about being physically operational. That was a cultural death. That was a death of a people. That could be a death of pride. And honestly, that could’ve been seen as being unable to breathe or be active in existence. That is something I cannot disagree with and do understand. (I must emphasize “could” because I don’t know that for fact as I was not there. But I’d love to read any documentation available! I’m sure r/AskHistorians has people knowledgeable.) As an aside, I really like Töregene’s phrasing of their actions. She says they “ chose violence […] fleeing westward ”. This may be a wonky translation thing. And yes, fighting is violence. But I’m surprised she’d use a word that’s seen as aggressive and antagonistic when she’s speaking about tribes that are fighting to maintain their independence against an empire and fleeing its rule. Could it mean more that she said that like that? I don’t know. Is it weirdly translated? Maybe! But I like that little wording there from her and how it could lend into her thoughts on the matter. But I do agree that Khulan probably thought everything she did was worthless. It is dramatic irony (is that the word?) that she said she could use her womanhood to protect others when, in the end, it was her womanhood protecting her and wasn’t enough to stop the Merkit and the other tribe. And I also agree that both Zummurud and Khulan had much more purpose when their loved one(s) were alive than when they were dead. And I do think that there were probably Merkit and other tribespeople who would’ve agreed that if they honored that forgiveness, they’d be alive and together. I’m sure there were many who wanted Khulan’s sacrifice to be meaningful too. It’s just multifaceted is all, in my opinion. But I think leaving it up to us to have these types of debates about what should’ve been done or could’ve been done, what was thought or felt, is really cool and something I hope schools do because it’s just cool and engaging with history is cool. (Don’t mean to sound rude. Should I have been, I apologize.)

That smile was brilliant from the studio- it conveyed so many things. I didn't think Khulan thought her sacrifice was worthless, but more of a forced acceptance of reality. At this point in time she has accepted that she is already one of the Mongols, so her father's and kinsmen's act of defiance to be foolish. Maybe she knew that the Merkit's males would rather die a prideful death, than be reduced to slaves. What struck me odd was Dayir's change of mind- he was realistic and open-minded enough to surrender to Genghis Khan than fighting to death, yet changed his mind at the end with his men. Perhaps he was prideful after all, but put up the act to ensure that at least the women would be taken care of, before taking his last stand.