天幕のジャードゥーガル

Idk what the specifics will be regarding Ogedei, but this series has gone to great lengths to give a nuanced depiction of the Mongol characters as well as Sitara and her own feelings. Even this episode where we see how much Toregene hates Ogedei we see how his other wives genuinely seem to love him. And right after Chagatai makes that pretty awful comment essentially blaming Sitara and Muslims in the empire for their poor situation, we get his conversation with Ogedei and see how he’s a lot more caring towards the vulnerable people of the empire than we initially think.

I like to believe its the same mindset that Sorghatanghi (i butchered that name) feels. He has sufficently dehumanized Torgene and her people that, to him, he is offering her mercy by tolerating her outspoken contempt. He sees them more like an animal lashing out at the hunter, but the death of the animal is necessary for the hunter's continued life. But in her case he has kept her as a pet, downplaying her rage

Chagatai's remarks about Muslims not adhering to Mongol laws are founded in historical accounts. [Chagatai's relationship with Muslims] According to some sources, Chagatai was seen as a strict administrator who brought order. However, contemporary Muslim chroniclers often viewed him with disdain due to his violent enforcement of laws that clashed with local religious customs. In other words, Muslims (allegedly) often broke Mongol law to adhere to their own religious laws and Chagatai violently punished them for it. Still, they were forcefully taken from their homes, and forced to adhere to laws and customs that clashed with their own. While they can't be blamed from our point of view, they can be from the Mongol's point of view for not being able to move up in their world.

And right after Chagatai makes that pretty awful comment essentially blaming Sitara and Muslims in the empire for their poor situation IMO he never did that, he pointed out something factual and actually gave Sitara "good" advice. He stated that if they keep doing that they will bring ruin onto themselves (meaning in the future, not the present). They are not in a poor situation, the entire point of this episode was to emphasize that. I will agree that they are giving very nuanced takes about the whole situation, in particular about the negative effects of multicultralism and how to mitigate them. Basically multiculturalism starts and stops with the law of the land, that way conflicts cannot arise between different groups.

Yes, I’m aware of the “objective” viewpoint that Muslims like Sitara in the Mongol empire need to be aware of the differences in cultural practices within an increasingly diverse nation or conflict will arise in the future. That's not what I was referring to, I was talking about the fact she was a woman and a slave and the severe implications it has when she breaks Mongol law (or possibly when she offends someone of a higher station). This episode was meant to emphasize that, she was reported and then easily kidnapped and forcibly taken to another camp for simply being SUSPECTED of theft. Considering how far the camps are in between each other (she didn't even know how to get back), she would have had 0 recourse if Toregene didn't clear her name. That's the point he was making... don't get yourself in trouble, especially because of your station. Even with that, I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion, he's not saying they need to be aware of the differences in cultural practices, he's saying that they need to follow Mongol law even if it contradicts their own culture. It’s just that for those like Sitara who never chose to be a part of said nation it’s going to come across as blaming people for their own present and/or future hardship. I can agree that it seems like he's doing this but considering he thinks the Mongol Empire is going to be an inevitability then he's simply telling her what she needs to know to stay out of issues. It's like if someone in Persia told Zumuld (who is from Europe), "No matter what, do break the law here, no matter how petty or you will bring ruin upon yourself" (for example, punishments for theft in Persia ranged from amputation to execution). That doesn't mean they are blaming her for her circumstances, it would simply be good advice.

They are absolutely in a poor situation wtf? Its conform or die, they don't get a choice in the matter. They don't care that she didn't consent to be a part of the empire, they wouldn't even help her leave. You even said it yourself, she got kidnapped because of a suspected crime. There was nothing she could do to stop it except hope there is some rationality left in her enslavers. The "worst" she did was wander off when she was already far away from her camp. And by grouping all Musliums together like its THEIR fault for not wanting to abide by the laws of their conquerors, it makes it all the more clear their view of them. Sure its the best idea to follow the leader for safety, but it doesn't make it right. Plus Torgene shows that even if you do actively state your desire to break the law, you can be excused based off the whims of someone else.

They are absolutely in a poor situation wtf? Its conform or die, they don't get a choice in the matter. They don't care that she didn't consent to be a part of the empire, they wouldn't even help her leave. You even said it yourself, she got kidnapped because of a suspected crime. There was nothing she could do to stop it except hope there is some rationality left in her enslavers. The "worst" she did was wander off when she was already far away from her camp. But that has nothing to do with their actual living situation, they aren't being overly mistreated and they are still allowed to practice their faith as long as it doesn't contradict Mongol Law. Of course that does not change how they were captured in the first place but yeah. Reminder that Sitara's situation at the start of the show was no different than now. Her first owner sold her off and her second owner wanted to educate her to sell her off again. She had no control over her destiny and the other slaves (Anis and Zumuld) she worked with emphasized that in episode 1. This episode tried its HARDEST to emphasize that their living situation was good enough that both Sitara and Toregene almost forgot about their anger and desire to take revenge. I felt like they actually beat us over the head with this a bit and Toregene flat out STATES this. And by grouping all Musliums together like its THEIR fault for not wanting to abide by the laws of their conquerors, it makes it all the more clear their view of them. Sure its the best idea to follow the leader for safety, but it doesn't make it right. The thing is, fault and morality don't matter with what Chagatai was saying, it simply is the current situation. Just as an additional example Zumuld faced the same problems when she would have been transported to TUS and she would have been forced to adapt and told something similar. If she kept breaking Islamic law, what do you think would have happened to her? He brother as well who was put into the Militia. Plus Torgene shows that even if you do actively state your desire to break the law, you can be excused based off the whims of someone else. She is different because she simply isn't taken seriously. She's also not a slave and the wife of the Khan, things aren't going to be the same for her. Not going to argue whether that's right or not, because it just is what it is. Comparing the treatment of a slave to an empress for doing the same thing doesn't make much sense to me.

Don’t know the specifics of Persian/Mongol culture at the time, but the funny thing is broadly speaking being “heavier” wouldn’t have had the same negative connotation we ascribe to it. Since it was harder to get proper nutrition back then and the only people who could have more meat on their bones were the wealthy, it actually had a more proper connotation in many places. I’m happy that Sitara seems to at least have access to decent nutrition.

100% agree! I’ve noted repeatedly over the past several episodes how surprisingly nuanced and even handed the series has been about Mongol culture and even the people at the very top of empire who were involved in the destruction of Sitara’s home. Tolui is a devoted wife guy and trusting brother, Chagatai wants to spread the laws of the Mongol empire to protect the weak who inhabit it, despite having a bit of a paternalistic, victim blaming slant to his desire to protect, and even Ogedei in this episode where he get a good idea how much Toregene hates him also get shown being genuinely affectionate towards his wives which the others seem to return. It fundamentally makes them feel just like regular people. All this while still understandably validating Sitara’s and Toregene’a hatred of them, but even they are shown to struggle reconciling their past circumstances with how they’re treated now. And it not so subtly implies that Sitara’s vengeance focused mindset probably isn’t the healthiest mindset for her own wellbeing and happiness. I did not come into this series expecting this level of nuanced writing from a revenge story, though I suppose I maybe should have expected more from an adaptation of real history given how complex and nuanced history actually is.

Well you don't really do revenge because it's healthy, you do it because you got a fire inside. And the tragic thing is, I think even if Sitara committed to moving on, she still wouldn't stop feeling it. All it takes is one more reminder of the mongol's cruelty and it'll ache again. How long would she be able to live just clenching her teeth and distracting herself? How true the happiness? But on the other hand, if she causes a stir in the Empire it could easily destroy what new life many of her fellow slaves have found. How would Sitara feel if she gets to see these newly formed families torn apart anew because she was the only one who couldn't stifle her flame? Or even Tolui weeping for his wives or them of him? Though the vastness and complexity of the world is beautiful and humbling, at the same time I feel like it condemns Sitara to dissatisfaction whichever path she walks.

I think you hit the nail on the head with the tragedy of Sitara’s situation, because it’s clear that there’s no way for her to just get revenge on the people who destroyed her life. Any harm or instability to the Mongol empire would get innocent, vulnerable people caught in the crossfire, many of whom like the slaves Sitara met this episode were victims of the Mongols themselves. And even limiting it to the people at the top it’s clear that they’re fundamentally normal people who have innocent people who care about them and who would be hurt in the process. This is an exceptional revenge story so far.

My own early interpretation is Sitara represents the Islamic world's rage and sense of injustice at the Mongol conquests. The empire did end up employing and elevating tons of Persian and Arab professionals and intellectuals the way we see with her, but the way it knocked down Iran and the Middle East at the height of its cultural achievement - easily way more advanced than Europe at the time - was brutal and something worth holding a grudge over.

It also should be said that Sitara started out as a slave already, just a slave to her own people. The Persians were no better about respecting human autonomy. For us modern viewers, this shifts them heavily to morally evil, but for them this is just life. For better or worse they get over the troubling aspects. But it does make me wonder. Its not like PTSD is a modern invention. These things damaged peoples mental health. For the ones who didn't take their lives, I wonder how it was dealt with?

The amount of research done by the author really shows in how the show’s characters are portrayed. I don’t think this is spoilers for anything that will be explained more deeply in the show, but just to be safe, I will tag it: If you feel like Ögedei seems unusually kind by Mongol khan standards: [Ögedei described as a historical person] Ögedei was known for being good-natured, generous, and jovial compared to many other Mongol conquerors. He was described as a charismatic and carefree leader who showed kindness to those around him and freely gave away wealth. Despite his more redeeming qualities, he still oversaw ruthless conquests and was responsible for the deaths of countless people and the destruction of their homes. Ögedei’s remarks about Chagatai’s fondness for laws, and Chagatai’s attitude toward Muslims who violated those laws: [Chagatai described as a historical person] Genghis Khan chose Chagatai to enforce the Yassa, the traditional Mongol legal code, because of his strict nature. While some sources view him as a fair administrator who maintained order, contemporary Muslim chroniclers often viewed him with hostility due to his violent enforcement of laws that clashed with local religious customs.

This is so interesting, how one can be so kind and generous to those around him while knowingly causing unmeasurable cruelty and destruction. There is so much room for exploration here, about how culture, religion, tradition and history change the metric by which we evaluate morality. I know next to nothing about Mongolian and Arabic culture and this show already fashinates me, even something as simple as how slaves are treated compared to the more western idea of slavery. By no means will I call it "nicer slavery" theres is no such thing as that. Slavery is slavery. But there does seem to be a higher room for tolerance and free thinking

Around this time in medieval Europe, slavery had more or less disappeared, at least when it came to owning other Christians, in favor of serfdom. Serfdom, compared to what we see in the show, was often a less absolute form of bondage because it offered more autonomy. I can assure you that Sub-Saharan Africans were usually not treated as nicely as depicted in this show by Muslim slave traders. Just like when Europe later “discovered” the same parts of Africa, attitudes toward slavery shifted. Not only were most Africans not Christians or Muslims, they also didn’t look like their buyers. Africans were dehumanized so that they could be bought by Christians from other Africans, and North African Muslim warlords frequently acquired slaves for the Trans-Saharan and East African slave trades through conquest, raiding, and trading. My point is that the “niceness” shown in the first few episodes usually wasn’t extended to Sub-Saharan Africans. Also, the race-based chattel slavery that developed in the Americas was much closer in character to the Middle Eastern slave trade in Sub-Saharan Africans than to the attitudes of many European countries that had already banned slavery by that point. ”The Western idea of slavery” is often a misconception that takes the American slave trade and applies it to all of Europe. The Mongols didn’t really care about race in the modern sense (not that they had much interaction with Sub-Saharan Africans, Northern Europeans, or many of the ethnicities in the Pacific Ocean, but still). They were harsh to everyone who wasn’t them. They saw themselves as superior and others as inferior. Instead of selective racism, it was more like Mongol supremacy.

I wouldn’t say that it’s whitewashed. Sitara became a slave because a young orphan girl had no legal rights, social safety net, or means to survive on her own. The slave trade depicted in the beginning is similar to how slavery worked in the Roman Republic and Empire. It all depends on the person who buys the slave. As we saw, even Zumurd, who was most likely captured by Muslim pirates, was treated comparatively well by the same family. Just like in Rome, if slaves worked hard enough and gained enough favor with the person who owned them, they could even be freed and become citizens. They could buy their own freedom or become free when their owner died. However, they could also be treated like garbage if the buyer so wished. Sitara/Fatima was once again relatively “lucky” that the person who became her owner after the Mongols captured her was kind. But the show could absolutely have done more to show owners who don’t treat their slaves well. The worst we have seen was the march after the people of Tus were captured, and that one woman being shot with an arrow in her back.

It's very difficult to hate something you understand. I think that's some of the complexity of writing we see going into this, authorial combination of fascination with and revulsion towards a strange, but still very human culture. And it's expressed brilliantly through the characters. Still, given the OP ends with Sitara (and Toregene?) summoning a storm, as per today's repeated point: they are (or were) both carrying the bezoar/jadu, which we might interpret as carrying a grudge - holding onto something that could destroy those who wronged them - it might also be something that heals, but perhaps in a more "justice" sense? - ... I'm feeling that it's not a "the best revenge is living well" story.

It's very difficult to hate something you understand. It just makes me hate it more ಠ⁠_⁠ಠ Perhaps the individual less, but the system more. For every inch replaced by pity another inch burns hotter, just moved up a level in emergence. For a simple more light-hearted and less personal example: rather than hate the mosquito, I hate the swamp. Or rather than hate the swamp I hate that which led me to living in the swamp, or that which keeps me from leaving. Though taken to its logical ends, this of course ends with hatred for [society/god/fate/cosmos]. Yep. Though perhaps we're speaking of different kinds of hate. Ethnocentrism verses indignation?

It just makes me hate it more ಠ⁠_⁠ಠ Didn't respond to the other poster as it seemed like a personal matter on which they'd said all they wanted to say, but, since you're also here... I would recommend not living like this. And I don't think this is "understanding." This is more often the mindset of someone who learns every day from the papers about a new crime committed by immigrants, or of conspiracy theorists raging about imagined schemes against them, or of the hobby-entertainment-discoursier who seems to hate their favourite games or books or anime much more than the people who simply dropped them, than it is the sober reflection of justified opposition. It is important that you can understand things and still oppose them, even vehemently; there are things it is proper to hate. And of course some people will find easy or unavoidable what I would describe as difficult; that's humans for you. But if you find yourself drawn to an inevitable misanthropic stew of loathing, that's a pretty good sign that you've gone off-course somewhere. Hope you're doing alright

Thankyou for posting your thoughts in more detail! That said, no, that isn't a reductio ad absurdum , it's throwing a wild punch in haste. If you took the time to read everything you responded to and consider the points, you wouldn't have said that, because "oh, what if you heard constant reports of some terrible thing being done 'out of sight', wouldn't that make you hate the perpetrators" is of course exactly what the example of someone gaining knowledge but no understanding by reading the tabloids was about; and I already explicitly said in as many words "it is important that you can understand things and still oppose them, even vehemently; there are things it is proper to hate." To be blunt - the rhetorical maneuver there is just asking people to bite a bullet in the hopes that they'll look stupid and evil for doing so. But it's not actually an especially difficult bullet to bite in this case, so I don't think that it works. One can feel sad and wish to intervene without feeling hate . And what you're describing being gained, merely the knowledge that more kicks are happening, is not understanding . While we're doing le reddit logical fallacy bit, though, I have to call this: I hate that the puppy is being kicked. An equivocation. When the conversation started, we were talking about hating a whole people; as you've continued, you've expounded upon what is clearly meant as a discussion of hatred of people , of the way people behave and think. Everything you've said revolved around that. You can't retreat all the way back to "hate" being merely "wishing the world were otherwise," which I emphasise I already said was a reasonable response to learning. I used to be a climate researcher [...] Yeah, I understand feeling that the situation is desperate and difficult. And yet. Solar power hasn't even hit the sigmoid slowdown yet . Murder rates have fallen . Homes are being built . There are three good yuri anime this season! Three ! We used to be lucky to get one! Sitting in negativity doesn't make you wise to the world. Fuck toxic positivity that says to turn a blind eye and let it be kicked, what can you do anyway, hands in the air, everything happens for a reason, bullshit. When I was abused I think I would have liked if someone was angry on my behalf. I would have felt like they cared about me, like they were on my side. So I'm going to be angry for the puppy likewise. I'm sorry to hear that. But your suffering hasn't made you a moral being. I'm sorry if people led you to believe it could have done so, but it cannot.

Yeah, it's kinda remarkable how much the show and the manga reflect where modern scholarship is in regards to the early Mongol Empire: The way this weak illiterate steppe tribe was able to turn it around and take over half the world is probably the most amazing medieval military achievement, and many of the systems and technologies established in their empire(s) (mostly through their vassals, but still) set the stage for the modern globalized world, but goddamn was there a huge human cost to all of this and can anyone even calculate whether or not it was worth it?

Sitara having to constantly remind herself of the pain she went through because of the Mongols is one of the most painful yet relatable aspects of her characters. There’s not letting yourself forget what they did to you or not letting yourself forgive them, and then there’s not letting yourself move on or be happy and the more scenes like that we get of Sitara the more it seems like it’s becoming more the latter than the former. But again, having an unhealthy coping mechanism to trauma and essentially not letting yourself be happy is quite relatable to me personally and makes her feel very human.

So, just as I thought, after being sent as a spy, Sitara found an ally in Töregene since they both seem to hate the Mongols. Though I was quite surprised that it happened in this episode completely by accident . I was sure that she'd be sent by Sorghaghtani to Ögedei 's court since he is the new ruler, but instead, she was supposed to end up in Chagatai 's. Interestingly, the brothers all seem to love each other very much , so I think that Sorghaghtani is misjudging the situation by thinking that problems can start because of them. Although that can always change in the future... Here my screenshot albums from the episode: Sitara Töregene Group scenes Others EDIT. I added my screenshot albums.