天幕のジャードゥーガル

The thing about rulers and court intrigue though, is that it's just as much about appearance as it is about the specifics. What that means is, if you act like a tyrant toward someone that displeased you, then things might not simply end there, since your followers and those present might bring back words of your deed, and outcomes coming out of it might not be to your liking. That's why even in real life, you have instances throughout history of powerful kings, popes, emperors and nobles all tolerating each other even in moments of great rivalry. Also, to wrong someone would require you to have a just cause, that you can use to explain to your vassals, to God (or the church), and to the people. As a result, clinging to obvious virtues such as benevolence, mercy, justice, zealotry, etc became a pretty common practice even for the greatest villains of history: Caesar was willing to commit massacres toward the people of Gaul, but was well beloved by his soldiers due to his treatments of them, to the point they decided to side with him over their loyalty toward the Republic when he crossed the Rubicon; Cao Cao was a horribly disloyal figure to the Han Dynasty, willingly used the Emperor as no more than his political tool and puppet to order other warlords of China around, yet there were points in time when he made even the virtuous Guan Yu wish to consider his proposal, of offering his service to Cao Cao in case his oath brother Liu Bei was dead. Those were some of the big name examples of why rulers and court figures who benefited from acting in virtuous manners to their subjects and surroundings, but the list is endless once you try and pinpoint influential people of history with these kinds of practice, because they were simply standard political maneuvers at the time. Court intrigue 101, so to speak.

Yup very good points, I just find Ogedei extremely tolerant especially for someone with his background, like Sitara is merely a slave, he really has no reason to be this lenient (she was lowkey being suicidal here) and yet he does. Like if she was someone with more power or significant, it would make total sense, but to him, whether she lives or dies makes zero impact on anything he does, others were expecting her to be punished or worse, but she got off scot free with him basically telling her I want you to be happy. But it’s still a power move to make sure to collect the loyalties of anyone. It’s just interesting how he goes about this. Also cao cao mention! My goat!

Maybe after getting some information from Boraqchin, he finds it impressive that a random "scholar's daughter" and slave girl from a far flung city his brother decimated as part of their family's mandate from heaven, was able to influence events that lead to the murder of his brother and possible conflict within his empire. Her reacting that way against him must take steel balls, or that edition of Euclid's Elements weighs a ton.

A bit of a stretch to call shamanistic belief to be "more correct" just because of the heliocentric-like detail while the knowledge Fatima shares in still is more superior in scientific methodology, no? Besides the divine creator point. Both are equally wrong by our modern standarts, none is "more correct". And for Fatima, daughter of Central Asia civilization - well, of course she sees her "science-pilled claim" as the advanced one. Clearly people here poking fun at Fatima's somehow superstitious beliefs and praising "Ogedei's aura", somehow missing the contextual point, have been brainwashed by the Great Khaan, the Benevolent, the Generous and Merciful, Khan of Khans, Ruler of the World...

The rationale as to the "why" was religious superstition, but she was frustrated because he was trying to argue against the mathematics and the predictability of said maths. To her, the science and knowledge she was taught and loved is the last thing she has of her family and for him to challenge it in any way, even as gently as he did, reveals just how much she still hates what the mongols did to her. Needless to say, he's got his work cut out for him if he's gonna win that wager he proposed.

I think Ogedei definitely, he seems really open minded and flexible, and in this convo he was merely throwing out a possibility that he thought of based on the traditional beliefs of his people, he really had no stakes to defend at all. Fatima seems much more determined to defend her education and religion, as you can see how she kinda crashed out. She seems to refuse anything that she doenst see as proper science while Ogedei doesn’t have that sort of education and rigidness, he gives consideration to any views equally because science and myths all have wisdom to take from in his perspective

I think eventually, Sitara could be convinced, but she would initially have resistance to it due to how deeply ingrained the geocentric model is to her through her religion and education. Religion and science are so deeply ingrained during this time that she wouldn’t even think to separate the them, so that may be a roadblock until maybe someone that she respects like Mohammed find an interpretation of their religion that supports heliocentrism instead (Sitara honestly doenst give me the vibes of someone who would question their faith in that way). I don’t think Ogedei would have much resistance at all, he may not even have to understand the math, even if you just bring up the idea, he would take it into consideration and think it’s an interesting perspective. But I don’t think he would think that there’s only one truth to this world, his people just don’t have that kind of need because whether the earth is the center or the sun is makes no difference in their daily lives

Tbh, the way Sitara is, I think it matters more on who’s the one relaying the fact to her than the actual truth because of how closed minded she is. Even if Ogedei were to show up with an actual scientific proof and model about why the universe is a bunch of horses being tied to a star she would still angrily shoot it down, whereas if it’s Mdm Fatima or Muhammad telling her she’ll take it. She’s just considered smart by that era’s standards because she’s able to read and was given actual education. But she’s not so much of a truth seeker or a wise person like Muhammad was.

Torëgene switching up when her son appeared was so precious, and a much-needed bit of levity. Sitara really going off at Ogëdai had me so nervous. She didn’t hold back, and she’s lucky that Ogëdai is so laid back. Pretty much anyone else would have wanted her head… I really enjoyed the series, but it feels like the real meat of the story is just beginning. The post-credit is just teasing me with a second season. Hopefully we get one soon.

Sitara really going off at Ogëdai had me so nervous. Sitara was so confident in her science when she argued with Ögedei, only to reference geocentrism. She was only about 300 years and a couple of thousand miles away from Copernicus’s work. It's a shame more people didn't listen to the Greek astronomer Aristarchus of Samos, because then heliocentrism could have been a more widely accepted concept as early as the third century BC (at least in the Mediterranean world). But yes, it was a very tense scene. Especially when the general had already told Ögedei not to speak directly with a commoner. I really enjoyed the series, but it feels like the real meat of the story is just beginning. Agreed, I need more of this!

The scene with Ogedei and Sitara is a fine example of the theme of the manga and the wide and differing perspectives of each character in the manga. Note how Ogedei's explanation is closer to the Heliocentric model we used today but Sitara is obviously not in a mood for a debate and shows how she would never in her life consider anything the Mongols say and do as good due to her thirst for revenge. There are two sides to Ogedei, one mellow and warm-hearted man and a cold politician. He genuinely wants the people he cares about and the citizens of the empire. He knows why Toregene and, by extension, Sitara's motivations and genuine wants them to feel better. However, he is also a politician and the very reason Genghis Khan chose him as a successor. He's indeed saddened about Tolui's death, but he does know very well that as long as Tolui is alive, he holds too much power and might even turn on him if they disagreed with each other. Thus, he thanks Boraqchin for her actions. He also has a conqueror's mindset but on a much higher level than even his father. True dominance is not forcing subjugation by brute force but by making it so that you want to be loyal to him because his way of doing things is the most beneficial. That the politician side of Ogedei might have cost him any chance to make Sitara and Toregene give up their vengeance and rest. To them, they are horrified of the idea that the empire that took away their happiness becomes "good," and thus they must resist and reinforce the idea that the empire and all of its people are evil, no matter how much this will erode their sanity. Not to mention their ultimate goal of preventing Ogedei's goal to reform the Mongol Empire and fracture it from within. They want the Mongols to remain as ruthless warmongers for the sake of goals and arguably may be willing to perpetuate the tragedies they suffered. If they succeed in fracturing the Mongol Empire, they will cause a power vacuum in which every faction, country, and warlord is willing to take whatever scraps of territory they can hold on to or try to become a great empire as well. They will likely be responsible for the deaths and sufferings of millions, just like the Mongols are. It really is a matter of perspective. There are no true "good guys" in this story as you can understand where everyone's coming from, yet nobody is perfectly in the right either. See you in 5 or 10 years for Season 2 though. The manga simply doesn't have enough material yet. The anime only adapted Vol.1 to half of Vol.4 and currently the manga is in Vol.7.

Ogedei is probably the most fascinating character in the series, at least at this point. As you say, his two faces are quite intriguing. This is a man who wants to build a better, more peaceful and prosperous empire. This is also the same man who greenlit an expedition to subjugate the Jin that caused hundreds of thousands of deaths, and who will greenlight more future conquests. This is a man who loves his family and would like it if they all lived happily. This is also the man who understands that Tolui was a threat to his vision and who thanks, rather than punishes, Boraqchin for what she did. If they succeed in fracturing the Mongol Empire, they will cause a power vacuum in which every faction, country, and warlord is willing to take whatever scraps of territory they can hold on to or try to become a great empire as well. They will likely be responsible for the deaths and sufferings of millions, just like the Mongols are. At the same time, they will also prevent other countries from facing the same fate that their peoples experienced, and would probably argue that Mongols (and their allies) killing each other to take the scraps from the broken empire is just desserts. Ironically, the first seed was planted almost by accident. Boraqchin was this close to nullify House Tolui forever, but Sitara (going against her own immediate wishes) woke her up from her stupor. Now she's a free agent, educating her sons in her own way. Her tale of the arrows was deliberately crafted to suggest that House Ögedei made a mistake by breaking Tolui's arrows and that she's going to raise her sons as a different, unbreakable set of arrows.

At the same time, they will also prevent other countries from facing the same fate that their peoples experienced, and would probably argue that Mongols (and their allies) killing each other to take the scraps from the broken empire is just desserts. What if Sitara's expectations of her plans causing fracturing the Mongol Empire only results in a formation of a stronger empire ready to do the same thing over again? What if she causes an explosion of invaders let loose similar to the barbarians of Rome, the Sea Peoples of the Bronze Age or the Rebellion of Five Barbarians that ended the Sima Jin Dynasty's peace after uniting the Three Kingdoms of Chinab(Wei, Wu and Shu) that further harms the Islamic world thanks to the fall of the Mongols? Sitara ultimately can't stop the cycle of empires, what happened to her will inevitably happen again. "In every time, in every place, the deeds of men remain the samevery time, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same."

True enough, though as someone who is learned, Sitara might think (not without reason) that internal strife usually weakens, rather than reinforces, empires. Ibn Khaldun won't be born until several generations later, but the core idea is hardly new in historiography. We modern viewers also know that [Have To Put In Spoilers Because Of r/anime 's Ridiculous Rule] the Mongol Empire's conquests will ultimately stop because of internal divisions, though it'll take several decades, and that there won't be a larger and stronger empire in world history until the British Empire centuries afterwards. So their bet is a safe one. In that regard, it's not too different from Ögedei's own bet. It's not as if his strategy is guaranteed to make all people happy. What if his fellow Mongols want more raid-pillage-and-burn and start questioning his authority? What if the newfound prosperity only serves to fuel their war machine to raze more cities and swallow more countries? In fact, both have tehcnically happened already (the former was the danger Tolui represented, the latter is how Genghis Khan's empire kept growing)

Ironically Ogedei's plan might actually weaken the Mongols in the long run. The prosperity will make them weak and forget their martial traditions and rely on infantry made from the people of their conquered territory. Remember that the Mongols of the Mongol Empire at the beginning of Genghis Khan's conquest are estimated to be only 800,000 while China alone has 136 million. Relying on oppressed majority as a military force as the ruling minority will be problematic in the long run. The prosperity might also make them proud and complacent, making them prone to internal infighting and court politics that will ruin efficent government and may lead to the Mongols being overthrown by the native people they conquered.

I really don’t think Sitara cares about any of that. She is simply refusing to have her righteous anger and the wrongs done to her be smothered and trampled on by “well things are better now with the mongol empire” and honestly why should she care about others benefiting from the deaths of those she loved. Her motive for revenge is purely personal, and revenge ultimately is causing harm to someone else rather than anything good. Most people just adapt to their life circumstances and try to move on with their lives, it’s the most logical response, but she refused to which is honestly a very tiring and difficult decision because holding onto anger and making yourself feel miserable despite living a decent life is tough. And revenge is never logical anyway despite it feeling justified She isn’t trying to stop any cycles or prevent other empires, she doenst care if people benefit from the empire or suffer for her revenge. There isn’t any for the greater good motivation here. she just wants the Mongol empire specifically to suffer.

Ögedei had such a badass/final boss moment when talking to Fatima Damm the POV of her being in the palm of his hand was such a masterpiece and his "watch from the sidelines. If you and Töregene find happiness in my kingdom, then it will be my victory" and Fátima being rendered powerless against the Great Khan. I have tons of compliments for this last episode what a way to leave us waiting for a next season

He also has a conqueror's mindset but on a much higher level than even his father. True dominance is not forcing subjugation by brute force but by making it so that you want to be loyal to him because his way of doing things is the most beneficial. Very nice take on how Ogedei's ideal of the empire makes him a bigger conqueror than Genghis Khan, and imo, a much more brutal one now that you've put things into words! I've always found Ogedei to be a really complicated character to read and I think you're spot on with how you described him. Note how Ogedei's explanation is closer to the Heliocentric model we used today but Sitara is obviously not in a mood for a debate and shows how she would never in her life consider anything the Mongols say and do as good due to her thirst for revenge. I also feel like this highlights Sitara's close mindedness and arrogance when it comes to her own knowledge, despite acknowledging that she's not as smart as she thought she is, she still holds it unknowingly, seeing how easily triggered she gets hearing a belief that completely challenges her own. And on the other hand, Ogedei the Great Kha'an who's supposed to be offended at the lack of manners and how she's responding to him is completely unshaken and calm. Making a sharp observation and completely aware of her root of anger, yet says the nicest words with the coldest tone to her. This probably makes Ogedei way more arrogant and cold than Sorghaghtani in Sitara's eyes and I can see how much it frustrates her to hear the wager. But, as you said, it's really just a matter of perspectives. Ogedei while being a ruthless and benevolent ruler at the same time, genuinely wants the good of the Mongol Empire, and that's why he pisses Sitara and Toregene off 😆.

Making a sharp observation and completely aware of her root of anger, yet says the nicest words with the coldest tone to her. This probably makes Ogedei way more arrogant and cold than Sorghaghtani in Sitara's eyes and I can see how much it frustrates her to hear the wager. Oh no doubt, and despite thinking Ögedei's ideals are admirable and even the best way to make use of the power the Mongol Empire has amassed though at the cost of blood, she's absolutely right that she's the most arrogant of them all. He can understand that they're angry but not really how that feels like. Sitara must be thinking "okay yeah and just like that you wash the blood off your hands? You think you can tame if you save me? You think this feeling is even something that can be tamed? If you die in the most politically divisive manner possible, maybe this fire will be quenched by a fraction". On the other hand, if Ögedei accepted that there's no going back for the two sides no matter what he does, he'd have to give up on his ideals and see the Empire he governs as a fundamentally corrupt and bloodthirsty monster, which would completely crush him. So it's as much a matter of psychological survival for him as well.

I’ve never pondered how Ogedei will feel if his vision fails to make it actually, that’s an interesting idea to point out there. He just overall seems really confident in his vision and does seem to have a overarching plan on how to make it happen, which makes him a really intriguing character. The only time he’s shown a bit shaken in the anime so far is when Genghis Khan and Tolui died, but even so, he wasn’t shown mourning at Tolui’s funeral either and went back to his Great Kha’an duties right away. So it’s hard to imagine an Ogedei accepting defeat or being crushed.

Yeah. 'The earth is a horse galloping around the same thing every other animal in the sky is tethered to' is not close to modern understanding just because it has the earth circling something, nor is it remotely scientific. Sitara (on the other hand) is mistaken, but stating the best known scientific model of her time and place. These aren't meaningfully competing ideas, but Ogedei can treat them like they are because he holds all the power in this conversation and because he doesn't care. He isn't invested in what is to him amusing but purely academic speculation. He can trample over her learned understanding while acting like he's being open minded without really listening (edit) or engaging in the ideas. For Sitara, learning and knowledge are all that ties her to her culture, her people,and her past. This is a matter of identity. For Ogedei, this is a show of power and compassion. For Sitara, it's an infuriating humiliation. But not because the Great Khan is right or somehow closer to the truth.

Good to know about how long a wait might be for a s2, hopefully it's less than that, but I'm happy to wait for more. Hadn't read the manga yet & was devastated that this was the final ep. Time to read what's available in the manga! It was interesting seeing the various responses from folks who've watched it to the way slavery & subjugation was treated in these regions & I really appreciated a more nuanced depictions that felt more historically grounded in the experience of people within those societies. Seeing the soft acceptance of their subjugation was heartbreaking, but you could understand how they reached that feeling despite slavery being morally abhorrent in any context. That paired with Fatima's constant struggle to retain what defines her in this new life and not fall into acceptance of Mongol society I felt worked as an exceptional mirror to display that exact concept over the course of the show. Holy smokes I need a s2. 10/10 show for me, was invested every episode.

That’s exactly what you mean… I can definitely feel that too. His voice acting added so much warmth and affection to those words. But that actually made it feel even more hypocritical to me 😭 Like he knew that was the last thing Töregene wanted to hear, and deliberately chose to say something so gentle to her anyway. I think my impression of that line would change a lot depending on whether he said it because he had resolved to make the country prosper, or whether it came from his own personal feelings 🥲

And I totally stand by your opinion! The fact that he sounds so affectionate is actually scarier now that you know Ogedei doesn’t view Toregene as a beloved wife but more of as a special subject used as a measurement in the grand scheme of his plan for Mongolia. He is well aware of the root of her anger, is totally ok even if she stays mad at him, and genuinely wants her to be happy. This sounds like he actually loves and cares about her, but then you realize this care of him is no different towards another slave or Toregene, and that’s so chilling 😆.

I’m glad I’m not the only one who noticed that despite the Mongol mindset for the movement of the heavens being framed as superstition vs Sitara’s science, that superstition is actually closer to how the truth via the movement of the earth around another object vs Sitara’s science actually being the inaccurate geocentric model. One of the best parts of this show has been the clash between Sitara’s Persian Islamic culture vs the Mongol’s and how despite how it might appear at first glance the Mongol’s culture isn’t simply superstitious barbarians vs enlightenment civilization, instead it showed numerously that the Mongol’s have their own pool of knowledge and wisdom. And speaking of one of the best aspects of the show, this series has been one of the best I’ve seen in it’s execution of a conflict that is genuinely morally nuanced without anyone being a clear good person. Sitara is our protagonist, but I wouldn’t call her any morally better than any other character. This show accomplishes what so many series fail at.

Yep the fact that she just outright dismisses Ogedei's beliefs as superstition despite his theory being much closer to the truth highlights how limited she is by Islamic knowledge and how arrogant and close minded she is to anyone who doesn't share her beliefs. I think it's fascinating that she isn't morally good character either, there genuinely is no good reason to keep pursuing her revenge. Remember, all she wanted at the start was her book back but now she keeps trying to find less and less tangible reasons to keep her anger going. Her life is genuinely better and she has access to all the vast knowledge across the mongol empire that she would ever want. But in her heart the only thing she cares about is her revenge and seemingly doesn't really care who her actions might hurt.

It wasn't closer to the truth. It sounds like it, because there's something "orbiting" something, but it isn't close at all. The north star is simply almost exactly at the top of the rotation axis of earth. Which makes that pillar "earthbound", and earth would be orbiting itself? Anyway, even ignoring that it would basically still be an earth centric model, the fact is the celestial spheres models were very precise and predictive . Convoluted, yes, but they reliably predicted astrological events, which the horses around Polaris (400 light years away) would be unable to do. The celestial sphere model was the result of painstaking and scholarly observation and logging of events. That is protoscientific. The other is a much more basic, less systematic observation.

Really captivating from minute 1, so much passion poured into this show. I'm not talking just about the animation or voice acting, but about the small details that usually aren't that obvious. Having an Uzbek reciting the athan at the start of episode 1, Mongolian sumo wrestlers speaking Mongolian, Mongolian drums for the soothsayer scene, etc. That's something that just speaks to the attention to detail that the anime team strived for, complementing an author who really tries her best to do her research. It's a perfect combo. You also had so many little tidbits throughout the show about the culture of the Mongols and Persians. Their customs, how they dress, how they speak, the way they live, and their environment. It's a show that didn't just focus on telling historical fiction; it really portrayed the history it is adapting. It's to the point where you actually learn a lot about both groups, even though learning about these people isn't the point of the show, but a byproduct of the story being told. The author and anime team also really, really, really excel at nuance. With figures such as Genghis Khan and his warmongering sons, it's extremely hard to depict how vicious they are, but while keeping the human element. You have to demonstrate the atrocities they willfully and happily commit while also balancing the fact that they are human, so they had a "good" side to them. This story excels at it. They don't pretend they weren't that bad or attempt to whitewash their crimes to win the audience over. Instead, they play it smart by showing how brutal they are with outsiders, while how kind, caring, and admirable they are with their own people. By showing these 2 facets of the group/people, we gained a more holistic view of the Genghis brothers without setting their crimes aside. Tolui himself acknowledges what he has done is wrong without showing any remorse before he drinks the poison; it's like the author wanted to make it even clearer for us. You know it's done well because so many of us felt sympathy for the hardships that befell some of the Mongolian characters, notably Ogedai, Tolui, and Sorghaghtani. It was a natural emotion because the show gives a natural, multifaceted depiction of the Mongols. You see how the brothers were warmongers,killers, and politicians, and that they were husbands, fathers, and leaders. That nuance also applies to the depiction of the woman. Yes, they were victims who are undeniable and should not be discarded. But they also had a lot of agency, willpower, and strength. They made major decisions, stood up to the men, and participated in political discussions. Now, some of this is complete fiction, like the current empress and her scheme. But the woman's role in the council is historically accurate. I really like that we see the suffering and vulnerability of these women without the varying strengths and influences they each had being put to the side. Shows often portray women as mere victims, devoid of agency or ability, but the author (having done her research) knew the women in this story were more than that. The show is also very emotionally poignant because the circumstances of many of these characters, especially Sitara, really did happen in history. That's what made the first 2 episodes such an emotionally painful watch because even tho its fiction + animation, it felt all too real knowing the history of the Mongols. I rarely ever tear up watching shows/movies, but somehow they had me in just 2 episodes. On a more personal note, I have been watching anime since before I even knew my multiplication, but somehow the thought of Islam or muslims being a key part of a story had never ever crossed my mind. Maybe it's because I never really thought it would be done tastefully, but just hearing the athan from minute 1, it felt like 2 very different parts of my world colliding. It felt so unreal that I had to start the episode over from the beginning. I was stunned. I'm really impressed by how much the author understood about us and how much research she (and the anime team) must have done to really get all the little things about us right. I think nothing else demonstrates her understanding of our religion/culture as the line "Seeking knowledge is the sacred duty of every Muslim." It's the essence of how we should live, and she fully understood and portrayed it with her characters. I also love the way the anime team animated the wudu, it was accurate and well done (Though you don't have to be topless to do it lol). I like that they go out of their way to see how something is done and put it in the show. It's the little things that go a long way after all. So yeah, extremely impressed from a more neutral standpoint and really, really moved on a personal note. I learned a lot of new history about the most important figures of the Mongolian Empire, as well as subtler tidbits about Mongolian culture. Hope we get a season 2, but before then, I will hopefully have the manga volumes in my hands. Besides one exception, I don't buy manga, but I really loved the adaptation of the author's work, so I want to support it. Wish I had saved the names, but I really enjoyed scrolling through the comments in here after a watch. There were a lot of tidbits and historical context that people brought up, which made the episode even better.