クレバテスⅡ-魔獣の王と偽りの勇者伝承-

AutoLovepon
第二の試練
拷問部屋を出たアリシアは、再会した双子にミレアを託してまたもや奈落へと落ちていく。そこでアリシアが見た巨大な魔獣・キメラクイーンの腹部には、勇者伝承復活のための実験で犠牲となった赤子たちの姿が...。
エピソードサムネイル
vRiise
My observation: Alicia is repeating a Hero Legend under Clevatess. Chapter 1: Clevatess gave her life. Chapter 2: Clevatess gave her mission. Chapter 3: Alicia obtained Hero's weapon. Chapter 4: Alicia obtained magical powers.
考察ポイント: アリシアはクレバテスのもとで勇者伝説を反復していると考えられる。第1章でクレバテスは彼女に命を与え、第2章で使命を与えた。第3章でアリシアは勇者の武器を入手。第4章では魔法の力を得た。この反復構造は物語の伏線だと思われる。考察くん
NekoCatSidhe
Alicia « accidentally » becoming another True Hero is certainly one twist I could see happening in that show.
アリシアが「うっかり」また真の勇者になる展開はあり得ると思う。普通くん
Mysteries67
Damn if true that's very bulletproof monk of them. Where the prophecy doesn't just apply to one person, there is another.
まことか、ならばあれは『バレットプルーフ・モンク』の如き御業よな。予言とは一人のみに当てはまらず、他にも現るるものに候。武士
greet_the_sun
原文
Morrowind did something like that. The whole game you're chasing after the nerevarine prophecies and fulfilling them up until the point where you can claim the ring that proves you fulfill them 100%... where you meet a bunch of ghosts of people who also thought they were the nerevarine. Less of "you were the chosen one so you had to fulfill the prophecy" and more "you fulfilled the prophecy, so you must be the chosen one".
『Morrowind』も似た構造だという考察ができる。ゲーム全体を通してNerevarineの予言を追い、それを成就していく。そして予言を100%満たす証の指輪を手にできる地点で、かつて自分こそNerevarineだと思っていた者たちの亡霊群と出会う。これは「選ばれし者だから予言を成就せねばならぬ」ではなく「予言を成就したからこそ、お前が選ばれし者なのだ」という逆転構造を踏まえたものだと思われる。考察くん
TheOneWithALongName
And one requirment is to give a tribe leader some booty.
それと条件の一つに、部族のリーダーにケツを提供することがあるんだよ。普通くん
Charming-Breakfast66
i mean harry potter did the same thing . i think its a common subversion of the "chosen one "
ハリポタも同じことやってたし…「選ばれし者」の定番ひっくり返しなんだよね、それな。感情くん
Magicbison
If that does happen I hope her injured eye opens back up when it does. The scar on her left eye was very prominent in a few scenes, like when she was angry with the two cultists talking about killing babies. Feels like prime trope potential for it to pop right back open when it matters.
もしそうなったら、彼女の負傷した目が開いてほしい。左目の傷跡がいくつかのシーンで目立ってたんだよね、例えばカルト信者たちが赤ん坊を殺す話をして怒ってた時とか。ここぞという時にパッと開く、王道の展開になりそうじゃん。普通くん
TiamatRuneaid
Yes! Even though Clevatess should be able to completely restore her, her eye keeps being injured even after multiple rebuildings. Something is definitely up with it, maybe she will be able to open it once she sees the “truth” of this world?
その通り!クレバテスは完全に修復できるはずなのに、何度再構築しても彼女の目は傷ついたままなんだよな。これは間違いなく何かある。この世界の「真実」を見た時、彼女は目を開けることができるのかもしれない。考察くん
Jaridan
the only problem is that she can die at any moment when clevatess cuts off the gas.
唯一の問題は、クレバテスがガスを止めたら彼女がいつ死んでもおかしくないってことだね。普通くん
runevault
I have a suspicion gaining the power of the true hero will remove her need for dark ichor to keep her alive.
真の勇者の力手に入れたら、彼女が生き延びるために闇のイコル必要なくなるんじゃない?てかそうなってほしいんだけど笑ギャル
LocalTechpriest
Vordin's- virgin artificial lab-grown hero vs Clevatess'- chad locally sourced, all natural hero
ヴォルディンの人工培養勇者童貞 vs クレバテスの地元産天然勇者チャド普通くん
megaera888
All natural but unfortunately a zombie. But I have an inkling she won't be a zombie for long ('cause Toah's gig can actually revive people).
全ては自然の摂理……だが哀れ、彼女は屍者と化した。されど我が直感が告げる、彼女が屍のままでいる時は長くはないと。トアの力は死者すら蘇らせるのだからな。中二病
SasparillaTango
What are the odds the hero wakes up and is like "I've done my part as a hero, there is no need for me here"
勇者が目覚めて「俺は勇者としての役目を果たした、もうここにいる必要はない」とか言う確率どれくらいあるんだよ!感情くん
Aesclypius
原文
I'd already supposed that Alicia was the true hero, but I didn't recognize her revival at all! It happened so early in the series, it entirely left my mind! Good catch! For some reason, I keep feeling that there are a few more guesses that haven't been thrown out of the pot, yet: - All the Lords of Dark Beasts are former heroes. - All of this is taking place on some kind of intergalactic ship (or prison?) - This is all a mistake that none of them can remember their way beyond.
アリシアが真の勇者だとは思ってたけど、彼女の復活は全く気づかなかった!序盤すぎて頭から抜けてたわ!よく気づいたね!なんかまだいくつか推測が残ってる気がする:魔獣の王たちは全員元勇者、これは銀河船か監獄みたいな場所で起きてる、全員が記憶を失ったミス、とか。普通くん
mmcjawa_reborn
My theory is that the lord of dark beasts were originally intended to be guardians, against something more powerful and evil than humanity beyond their borders.
拙者の推論では、闇獣の王は元来、国境の外なる人類より強き邪悪なる何かから守る守護者たるべく生まれし存在に候。武士
TiamatRuneaid
To be honest this seems to be highly likely. If you think about it, what stops all the dark beasts from wiping out humanity if they really wanted to? Probably they also forgot their true purposes across the milleniums?
正直これかなりあり得ると思う。ダークビーストが本気なら人類を滅ぼさない理由って何かある?たぶん奴らも千年の間に本来の目的を忘れたんだろうね。普通くん
the_card_guy
原文
I feel like part of it is "other Dark Lords are the bigger threat". Remember, Clevatess had to undertake certain measures in S1 because he didn't want any of the other Lords to realize he'd left his territory. We know that one of the Dark Lords is actually on sorts decent terms with her subjects, to the point that they actually worship her. Voridin may have been actually experimenting with humanity... And Clevatess seemed perfectly content to leave them be until the Heroes actively went after him.
他の魔王たちがより大きな脅威だという点もありそうだな。S1でクレバテスが領域を離れたことを他の魔王に悟られまいと対策を取っていたのはそのためだ。ある魔王は臣民と良好な関係を築き、崇拝されるほどだった。ヴォリディンは人類で実験していた可能性もある…クレバテスは勇者側から仕掛けるまで静観するつもりだったと思われる。考察くん
KardigG
I was wondering if there were supposed to be 5 Lords of Dark Beasts and the True Hero was one of them (as in Humans were considered Dark Beasts too)
暗獣の王は5人いて、真の勇者もその1人なんじゃないかと思ってた(人間も暗獣に含まれるって意味で)普通くん
Charming-Breakfast66
i had a thoery that this ais all inside a vidoe gamea and the true hero is the PC .
てかこれ全部ゲームの中の話で、真の勇者ってPCなんじゃね?って説あるんだけど笑ギャル
shad79
I wonder if Alicia will get another power-up if she beats her father , which is the second trial, as Milea said.
アリシアが父親を倒したら、またパワーアップするのかな?それがミレアが言ってた第二の試練だしwwwwおじ
RimeSkeem
First she beat Drel, who couldn't beat her father. Now she's going to beat her father, who couldn't beat the dragon. Next she'll beat the dragon!
最初はドレルを倒した。彼は彼女の父親に勝てなかった。次は父親を倒す。彼はドラゴンに勝てなかった。次はドラゴンを倒すんだ!普通くん
BosuW
Peaklicia: "Lately, I feel like all I ever do is go up".
ピークリシア:「最近、登ってばかりな気がする…」←これ優勝すぎるッ!エモい…しんどい…泣いた感情くん
Thepsycoman
"You can never hope to have the heart to fight and kill the one you love the most in their prime" Alicia the battle junkie "I get to have a full on fight against a faithful copy of the one who trained me, before he lost his leg, and finally get a true measure of my growth?! Fuck yeah, I'll make you proud by beating you dad!" Confused evil princess noises
「最愛の人を全盛期に殺す覚悟なんて持てないよ」アリシア(戦闘狂)「師匠の足がまだ無事だった頃の完全コピーと全力で戦えて、自分の成長を測れるだと!?最高じゃん、親父を超えて誇らせてやる!」困惑する悪役姫の声普通くん
raidensnakeezio
I think her getting a copy of the Dark Dragon sword might be the power up we're looking at. But then, if I remember correctly from the first season, there are "true"/"real" regalia, then there's "impure"/"imperfect"/"fake" regalia. Therefore, if what Alicia manages to obtain is a copy of a copy/fake, then how strong will it really be?
彼女がダークドラゴンの剣のコピーを手に入れるのがパワーアップなんだろうな。ただ、1期を思い出すと「真の」神器と「不純な/不完全な/偽の」神器があったはず。つまりアリシアが手に入れるのがコピーのコピー/偽物なら、実際どれほどの強さになるのか?という考察ができる。考察くん
slicer4ever
原文
This honestly feels a bit too on the nose that alicia is going to be a true hero, not that I would be disappointed, but it just feels like the very obvious story route. I feel like cleavatess might go the same way frieren did in that even if she's not a "true" hero, she will still succeed at being one anyway. It also seems to be a bit implied the humans(and possible heros) of the past were completely emotionless, so perhaps alicia will become a hero of modern humanity, and different from the heros of old, likely succeeding in preventing whatever apocalyptic event happened that destroyed the ancient humans.
アリシアが真の勇者になる展開は正直わかりやすすぎる気がする。別に失望はしないけど、あまりに王道すぎるルートだよね。クレバテスもフリーレンと同じで、たとえ「真の」勇者じゃなくても結局は勇者として成功するんじゃないかな。過去の人間(と勇者)は完全に無感情だったっぽいし、アリシアは現代人類の勇者になって、昔の勇者とは違う形で古代人類を滅ぼした終末を防ぐのかもね。普通くん
Earlier-Today
I also wonder if Luna is the one who will be the true hero.
ルナが真の勇者になるんかもな、ワイもそう思うわ2ちゃん
Pampas_Wanderer
Yeah, ever since a fer chapters ago ever since Alicia got her rune thingie, that the story might be building towards her becoming the hero. Imo the hero Vordin wants to revive will be a faulty/corrupted copy and by the end Alicia will become the true hero.
うん、数話前からアリシアがルーン的なものを手に入れて以来、物語は彼女が勇者になる方向に進んでるのかもと思ってた。俺的には、ヴォルディンが復活させたい勇者は欠陥品か汚染されたコピーで、最終的にアリシアが真の勇者になるんじゃないかな。普通くん
Ralathar44
Yeah, that's been on my radar that's she's essentially being the True hero and walking the trials. Was wondering if the show was actually gonna go there or not though, its definitely possible.
それな!彼女が実質の真の勇者で試練を歩んでるってのは俺も注目してた。でもこの作品が本当にそこまで踏み込むのか気になってたんだよね。全然あり得ると思う!感情くん
StrikingPrey
The dead hero had a scar that reminded me of Alicia's
死んだ勇者の傷跡がアリシアのを思い出させたな普通くん
LienaSha
Rathwell: So why do you want to revive the hero? Vordin: It'd be faster to show you. *goes and revives the hero* ..... THAT DIDN'T EXPLAIN IT AT ALL! You're supposed to explain before you revive! (I mean, I know that logically, that's perfectly reasonable from Vordin's POV, but I certainly wouldn't stand by and just casually watch like "umu umu, I see, I see" while he does it T_T)
ラスウェル「なぜ勇者を復活させたい?」ヴォルディン「見せた方が早い」→復活させる。…全く説明になってない!復活の前に説明すべきだろ!(ヴォルディンの視点では理にかなってるのは分かるが、私なら「うむうむ、なるほど」と呑気に眺めてはいられない T_T)考察くん
Time_Significance
I think I like Vordin's method of transforming into a human the best. Klen using his shadows to transform is classic. Zavtier already looks human, and possessing someone is also pretty standard. Rathwell infesting a guy is creepy but cool. Vordin transforming by explosion then walking through the wall of flame? Metal as fuck.
ヴォルディンの変身方法が一番好きかも。クレンが影使うのは王道やし、ザヴティエルは元から人間っぽいし憑依も普通。ラスウェルが寄生するのはキモいけどカッコいい。ヴォルディンが爆発で変身して炎の壁歩いてくるの?ガチでメタルすぎやろwww2ちゃん
JJJ954
Zavtier already looks human No, that's from her possession of her priestess. Her true form hasn't been shown by implied to be a giant bird like beast.
ザヴィエルはもう人間に見えるね。いや、あれは神官の憑依によるものだよ。本当の姿はまだ見せてないけど、巨大な鳥のような獣らしい。普通くん
shad79
I was hoping for some answers from Vordin in this episode , but well, you can't have everything. At least he took care of those other cult members , hahaha!
ヴォルディンからの答え期待しとったのに、まあ全部は無理やな。せめて他のカルト連中始末してくれたわwww2ちゃん
athrun_1
Vordin can just explain the plan in just a few sentences, and then done.
てかVordin説明うまいじゃん!数行で計画まとめて終わりとかまじ有能!ギャル
rubslotiononitsskin
The hero was the only one to take a Tiger Drop from Kiryu-chan without dying.
あのヒーロー、桐生ちゃんのタイガードロップを食らって死ななかった唯一の奴なんだよな…!感情くん
djthomp
原文
So we're post-apocalyptic, though I think that's not really a surprise given the hints that were dropped before. The ruins don't really look Earth post-apocalyptic though, which is a little different. Evil mode princess is kind of hot. It's nice to see Alicia having a solid kick-ass moment killing that beast from S1 and then the chimera abomination too. Flying baby Luna is very fun, talking baby Luna is a little creepy but still also fairly fun given how he was characterized. He even had baby themed jokes. I feel like Alicia is going to have less of a hangup about fighting and killing her fake father than evil princess is expecting.
終末世界か。前振りあったし驚きはないかな。遺跡は地球の終末っぽくないのがちょっと違うね。悪役モードの姫、けっこうイイ。アリシアがS1の魔獣とキメラを倒す活躍が見られて良かった。空飛ぶ赤ちゃんルナは楽しい。喋るのはちょっと不気味だけどキャラ的には面白い。赤ちゃんネタのジョークもあった。偽の父親との戦い、アリシアは悪姫が思うより抵抗なさそう。普通くん
slicer4ever
talking baby Luna is a little creepy but still also fairly fun given how he was characterized. He even had baby themed jokes. I'm glad everyone is also a bit weirded out by luna and doesn't just outright accept it as something normal. even his mother is like "this is actually a really weird thing that is absolutely not normal for humans."
赤ちゃんしゃべるルナちょっとキモいけどキャラ的にはまあ面白いンゴね。ベビーネタのジョークまであったし。周りもルナのこと普通にキモがってるのが良かったわ。母親すら「これ人間的にガチで異常やろ」って言ってるし草2ちゃん
AceSoldia
It's funny cause Klen would not know its not normal until they told him
クレンは「普通じゃない」って言われるまで気づかないのが笑えるんだよな普通くん
Kullthebarbarian
yes, he even said "Oh, so human do grow up fast as i heard" like Luna was how a human normally would grow, lol he was clueless on what is normal and what is not normal in the humans
てか彼、「人間って聞いた通り成長早いんだね」とか言っちゃってたじゃん!ルナのこと普通の人間の成長だと思ってたっぽい笑 何が普通で何が普通じゃないか全くわかってなかったんだけどまじで笑ギャル
Charming-Breakfast66
while i did think Luna's advance was cool and accelerated. when the princess mentioned he already had the intelligence of a 10 year old , my first thought was , that they must all be idiots or have a really bad education system ( to be fair a post apocalyptic, medieval , fantasy world would probably have pretty shitty education ) as he seems more first grade smart
ルナの進歩は確かにクールで加速的だったと思う。ただ王女が「彼は既に10歳児の知能を持つ」と言った時、最初に思ったのは、みんな馬鹿か教育制度が酷いんだろうなと(まあ終末後の中世ファンタジー世界なら教育はクソだろうけど)。彼はむしろ小学1年生並みの賢さに思える。考察くん
mekerpan
Alicia is proving to be pretty awesome. I'd call HER a "true hero". I think (or at least) hope the Clevatess has a greater appreciation of her than she thinks he does ("just a speck of dust on his shoulder").
アリシアはかなり凄い奴だね。彼女こそ「真の勇者」だと思う。クレバテスは彼女が思ってる以上に評価してるはず(「肩の上のちりほどの存在」じゃなくて)。普通くん
is-this-a-nick
I would put Alicia on the level of Himmel. Even if they are not the "True Hero" due to technicalities and shit it does not matter because actions count.
アリシアはヒンメルと同レベルだと思うわw たとえ「真の勇者」じゃなくても、細かいことはどうでもいいんだよなw 行動が全てだからなwwwwおじ
athrun_1
It's what the Hero Alicia would have done.
勇者アリシアならそうしただろうね。普通くん
manshiro_xyz
She is going through all of the steps in the legend more or less, that's gotta count for something. And she has to be more to Clevatess, otherwise he wouldn't have let himself get stopped by her when he was about to give up on humanity at the end of season one.
彼女は伝説の段階をほぼ全部踏んでるんやから、それだけで意味あるやろ。それにクレバテスにとって彼女はもっと特別な存在のはずや。じゃなきゃシーズン1の最後、人類を見限ろうとしてたクレバテスが彼女に止められるなんてありえんやん。2ちゃん
mekerpan
It seems like Clevatess, like some of his colleagues" HAS finally come to value at least SOME humans.
クレバテスも他の仲間たちと同じで、ついに少なくとも一部の人間を大切に思うようになったみたいだね。普通くん
yutingxiang
Yes, and he's genuinely fond of Luna beyond "this human will end up being interesting" which we see when he agrees to let Luna secretly use him as a pillow in the future.
ふむ、彼はルナを単に「面白い人間」と見ているだけではない。将来、ルナが密かに彼を枕代わりにすることを許す——その事実こそ、我が目に映る真の情愛の証なのだ。中二病
Niwaka_Samurai
which we see when he agrees to let Luna secretly use him as a pillow in the future. That was sweet
ルナがこれから密かに枕として使うことを許すシーン…尊すぎる…!優勝感情くん
shad79
I was quite surprised by how affectionate Klen seemed to be towards Luna in this episode , but well... having a kid can change a person , lol.
この回のKlen、Lunaに対してすごく優しかったのが意外だったな。でもまあ…子供ができると人は変わるよね、笑。普通くん
slicer4ever
Honestly this could have been such a different show had clevatess just stayed in his lair with alicia trying to raise luna.
正直クレバテスがアジトに残ってアリシアとルナ育ててたら全然違うアニメになってたやろなwww2ちゃん
SeattlePurikura
Luna adores Klen, which I think feeds into Klen's ego quite a bit too.
ルナはクレンをすごく好きで、それがクレンの自尊心をかなり満たしてると思う。普通くん
athrun_1
Hiden will be the most powerful country in that world. Luna the wise king, and the guardian Clevatess, lord of the dark beasts.
ヒデンはあの世界最強の国になるやろな。賢王ルナ、そして守護者クレバテス、魔獣の王。2ちゃん
athrun_1
I think it will be Vordin vs Clevatess and Hero Alicia vs True Hero.
Vordin対Clevatess、そして勇者Alicia対真の勇者になると思う。普通くん
Falsus
He talks up Alicia all the time when she isn't there to hear it.
彼はアリシアがいない時、いつも彼女のことを持ち上げて話してるよな。ドライおじ
mekerpan
Sort of like my Mother used to do (so long ago).
昔、母がよくやってたのとちょっと似てるな。普通くん
Hartzilla2007
I think (or at least) hope the Clevatess has a greater appreciation of her than she thinks he does Clevatess pretty much admitted as much in the first season.
クレバテスは彼女が思ってるよりずっと評価してると思う(少なくとも願ってる)。シーズン1でほぼ認めてたやん。2ちゃん
Frostbitten_Moose
And this season even. He's willing to admit she's pretty capable and that he gives a damn to his peers, but never to her.
てか今期もまじでそれなんだけど!彼、彼女のこと結構有能って認めてるし仲間のことは大事にしてるっぽいのに、彼女にだけは絶対それ見せないじゃん!やばくね?ギャル
AceSoldia
It's so funny how much he praises her when she's not around. 'my servant, the Hero Alicia, first of her name, the goat injured me in my perfect form, she's got this.'
彼女がいない時にめっちゃ褒めてるの面白すぎる。「我が従者、勇者アリシア、その名の最初の者、ヤギが完全体の俺を傷つけた、彼女なら大丈夫」って。普通くん
Rokusi
At this point you can just mentally replace "servant" with "daughter" any time he talks about her.
今となっては、彼が彼女について話すときは「召使い」を「娘」に頭の中で置き換えればいいだろうな。ドライおじ
Mysteries67
I'm glad it wasn't a modern/cyberpunk apocalypse rather ancient civilization coded.
てかこれ近代とかサイバーパンクじゃなくて古代文明っぽい終末なのまじ神じゃん!ギャル
mmcjawa_reborn
Looked more like an ancient magitech/Atlantis style civilization, than anything earthly
地球のどの文明ってより、古代の魔導技術とかアトランティス系の文明って感じだったな普通くん
shad79
Evil mode princess is kind of hot. Yes, she is! I wonder if Milea has other special powers when she's in that, I'd say, Allozar mode . Plus, I really hope that we'll see her fight against Alicia after the second trial .
悪役モードの姫、なんかエロくない?せやな!ミレアがアロザールモードの時、他に特殊能力あるんか気になるわ。あと第二次試練の後、アリシアと戦うとこ見たいンゴね。2ちゃん
CitronClassic672
I really love her new demonic fairy tale princess aesthetic. It’s the perfect blend of edgy gothness and traditional femininity via the pink tutu.
彼女の新しい悪魔的な妖精姫の雰囲気、めっちゃ好き。ピンクのチュチュでエッジーなゴス感と伝統的な女性らしさが完璧に混ざってる。普通くん
BosuW
Giving old magical girl villain energy
昔の魔法少女の敵役みたいなオーラ出てるンゴ2ちゃん
Future_Vantas
原文
The ruins don't really look Earth post-apocalyptic though Its fantasy post-apocalypse, one that went from gilded fantasy to dark fantasy. Its a pretty fresh take. Evil mode princess is kind of hot. She looks like a dark magical girl I feel like Alicia is going to have less of a hangup about fighting and killing her fake father I think she will hesitate at first but after a few blows she will remark how its not a perfect copy, being either weaker or not as skilled, at which point she will strike it down.
廃墟は地球の終末って感じじゃなくて、ファンタジーの終末なんだよね。華やかなファンタジーからダークファンタジーに変わった感じ。結構斬新な切り口だと思う。悪役モードの姫、なんか色っぽい。ダークな魔法少女みたい。アリシアは偽の父親と戦って殺すことにそこまで抵抗なさそう。最初は躊躇するだろうけど、数発打ち合った後で「完璧なコピーじゃない」と気づいて、弱いか技量が劣るかで、その時点で倒すんじゃないかな。普通くん
rubslotiononitsskin
Milea, you fool! You just gave Alicia another sword! This is why you're called the Backstage Princess!
ミレア、このボケ!またアリシアに剣渡しちゃったやん!だからお前は「舞台裏の姫」って呼ばれるんやで!2ちゃん
Goobisan-the-third
原文
Really? I thought that baby talking luna was the best part of the entire episode. He is so frkn adorable! Also, evil princess definitely looks hotter than her princess peach outfit. Also, the whole pre-Apocalypse civilization, could easily be a far off future earth. To the point where continents shifted, humanity loss touch with their emotions, and magic beasts became a thing. Although, im pretty sure that the implications that this is a very different world were kind of obvious.
マジで?ルナの赤ちゃん言葉が今話の一番の見どころだと思ったけど。めちゃくちゃ可愛いんだよ!あと悪役の王女はピーチ姫の衣装より絶対セクシーだね。終末前の文明って遠い未来の地球でも全然ありえる話だよね。大陸が移動して、人類が感情を失って、魔獣が生まれた、みたいな。まあこれが別世界だって示唆はけっこう明白だったけど。普通くん
RaptorJ
Dear Sub writers, A "four-hundred percent" improvement to his carbon ability is a five -fold increase.
ねえサブライターさんたち、彼のカーボン能力が「400%」向上ってことは、5倍になったってことじゃん!ギャル
RelativeMundane9045
There was sadly no Dark Beast Lord of the math classroom territory.
数学教室領地の暗黒獣王はいなかったのが残念だね。普通くん
sobani
It's easy to confuse, as the increase is 4 times the original. Also this reddit comment suggests that a 400% increase is the same as a 4-fold increase.
4倍増って元の4倍だから紛らわしいんよな。あとこのRedditコメントも400%増は4倍増と同じって言うてるわ2ちゃん
TommaClock
Well depends on how many increased multipliers he already has. Unless it's actually a more multiplier.
倍率がどれだけ上がってるか次第だよね。実際はもっと倍率かかるやつじゃない限りは…感情くん
yurilnw123
Imagine someone out of the loop reading this lmao. You're cruel.
事情を知らない人がこれ読んだらどうなるか想像してみ、笑うわ。キミは残酷だね。普通くん
Ralathar44
I think the commenter successfully confused people into upvoting them haha. But if the increase itself is 400% that's 400% + 100% for a total of 500% or five fold total. But the improvement itself is still 400% or four fold.
そのコメント、みんなをうまく混乱させてupvote稼いだよな笑。でも増加自体が400%なら、400%+100%で合計500%、つまり5倍ってことになる。ただ改善分自体はやっぱり400%、4倍だという考察ができる。考察くん
Aliensinnoh
Fencepost problem? Four folds means five segments folded together.
フェンスポスト問題?四つ折りなら五つの区間が重なるってこと。感情くん
Ralathar44
原文
Dear Sub writers, A "four-hundred percent" improvement to his carbon ability is a five -fold increase. If you have a 400% IMPROVEMENT then INCREASE is 400%. The final Result is 500%, or five fold. But it is NOT a five fold increase. That would instead make it a 500% improvement resulting in 600% overall. You've talked yourself into the exact kind of mistake you're trying to correct unless I've overlooked something. And got upvoted for it. EDIT: Looked into it more. Basically the entire phrase sucks and we're both right. 10 increased by threefold can be read as either 30 or 40. By all rules of ordinary English 10 increased by X = 10 + x. But folds is old #@$@ed up language that spits in the face of normal English rules. Because English evolved and the phrase didn't it's used inconsistently. In both news and science you can find both usages of folds. Style guides in science directly treat the phrase as a known problem rather than a settled term. In fact a pharmacologist who spent decades reading the literature concluded that “fold increase” and “fold higher” are used incorrectly more often than correctly. So best practice is actually to just throw the phrase in the garbage completely because its unclear and disagreed on.
字幕翻訳者さんへ。「400%の改善」は5倍増だよ。400%改善なら増加は400%で、結果は500%=5倍。でもこれは5倍「増」じゃない。それだと500%改善で全体600%になる。君は自分が正そうとしてる間違いにハマってる気がする。しかもupvoteされてる。編集:調べた。要はこの表現自体がダメで、お互い正しい。10を3倍増は30とも40とも読める。普通の英語なら10増加は10+x。でもfoldは古くて英語のルールを無視する厄介な言葉。英語が進化しても表現が取り残されて使われ方がバラバラ。科学のスタイルガイドもこれを既知の問題として扱ってる。何十年も文献を読んだ薬理学者は「fold increase」は間違って使われる方が多いと結論づけてる。だからこの表現はもう全部ゴミ箱行きがベスト。曖昧で意見も割れてるからね。普通くん
RaptorJ
"fold" is understood to mean multiplication, a five-fold increase is a quintupling. "Increase" indicates direction.
「fold」は掛け算の意味やで、5-fold increaseは5倍ってことや。「increase」は方向を示しとるんや。2ちゃん
saga999
原文
Increase is addition, not direction. Your RPG character's attack increased by 10. You add 10 to the attack. Your profit increased by 100%. You add 100% to your profit. 4 fold improvement is a 4 fold increase, or a 400% increase. You add 400% to it, meaning it is now at 500% (whatever "it" is). If your profit is 4 fold of what it was previously, THEN your profit is 400% instead of adding 400%. You are not confused about the meaning of fold. You are confused about the words surrounding it.
増加は足し算であって方向じゃない。RPGキャラの攻撃力が10増えたなら、攻撃に10を足す。利益が100%増えたなら、利益に100%を足す。4倍の改善は4倍の増加、つまり400%増。それに400%を足すから、合計は500%になる。利益が以前の4倍になったなら、それは400%であって400%を足すんじゃない。「倍」の意味で混乱してるんじゃなくて、その周りの言葉で混乱してるんだよ。普通くん
Ralathar44
原文
Did some digging, tl;dr its an old messed up phrase that doesn't follow modern English conventions. Style guides in science treat the phrase as a known problem rather than a settled term and a pharmacologist who spent decades reading the literature concluded that “fold increase” and “fold higher” are used incorrectly more often than correctly. So basically the phrase should be left dead and buried in the past where it belongs, it does not fit modern language, and you'll never know exactly how the writer was using it unless they explicitly tell you because it's used so inconsistently. You're right and the other guy is right. It's used both ways regularly.
調べたンゴ。要は昔のめちゃくちゃな表現で現代英語のルールに沿ってないやつや。科学のスタイルガイドでも「既知の厄介事」扱いで、何十年も文献読んできた薬理学者も「fold increase」は間違って使われる方が多いと結論づけとる。つまりこの表現は黒歴史として墓に葬っとくべきもんや。現代語に合わんし、使われ方もバラバラすぎて書き手が明言せん限り正確な意図は分からん。お前も相手も両方正しいンゴ。両方の使われ方が普通にあるんや。2ちゃん
Ralathar44
It's like they didn't read your response or mine and just repeated the same canned response. Neither of us is disagreeing that fold is times but they keep repeating that. I honestly stopped for a moment to check and see if they were actually a bot lol.
あなたの返信も私のも読んでないで、同じ定型文を繰り返してるだけじゃん。どっちも「フォールドは強い」って否定してないのに、ずっとそれ繰り返してる。一瞬マジでボットか確認したわwww普通くん
RaptorJ
To make the usage more clear, you can replace "fold" with "times." As in, a four-times increase.
「fold」は「times」に置き換えると分かりやすいで。つまり4倍増ってことやな。2ちゃん
saga999
原文
Yes, increase by 4 times. You have $10. How much do you have if you increase it by 1 time? $20. How much do you have if you increase by 2 times? $30. 3 times? $40. 4 times? $50. $50 if 5 times the amount you originally have ($10). But you increased it only by 4 times. Again, it's the word surrounding it that you are confused by. You understanding fold perfectly. You are not understanding "increase by" or "improvement".
そう、4倍に増やすんだ。10ドル持ってるとして、1倍に増やすといくら?20ドル。2倍に増やすといくら?30ドル。3倍は?40ドル。4倍は?50ドル。元の額(10ドル)の5倍で50ドル。でも増やしたのは4倍だけ。混乱してるのは周りの言葉のせいだよ。foldの理解は完璧。わかってないのは「increase by」や「improvement」の方だ。考察くん
RaptorJ
原文
I understand your non-standard interpretation of "n-fold increase" is internally consistent, but that's just not how the phrase is commonly used. Pulling examples from the dictionary entry : The three projects – “Grateful,” “Rhizome” and “Trinity” – were chosen from 15 submissions following a two-round process of materials review and interviews, the ACF said. The lineup marks a threefold jump from last year’s single recipient, [Baseline 1, Result: 3 (3x)] The death toll marked a threefold jump from the official figure of 99 deaths released Thursday last week. [Baseline: 99, Result: 302 (3.05x)] The results show a fourfold increase of global riverine N2O emissions [Baseline: 70, Result: 291 (4.15x)] Lewes Beach reported a fourfold increase in stings compared to 2024...Lewes Beach Patrol treated 295 stings in 2024, the first year the data was collected, but reported over 1,200 cases so far in 2025 [Baseline: 295, Result: >1200 (4.07x)] To your point, the common usage for "n-fold increase" means that a "1-fold increase" means no change; and I think that's reflected in much less use than higher multipliers ( ) and that this ambiguity/misunderstanding is why all of these forms are falling out of favor.
「n倍増加」の君の非標準的な解釈が内部的に一貫してるのは分かるけど、一般的な使われ方とは違うんだよね。辞書の例を挙げると:3つのプロジェクトが15件の応募から選ばれた、これは前年の1件から3倍の跳ね上がり[基準1→結果3]。死者数は先週木曜発表の公式99人から3倍に[基準99→結果302]。河川のN2O排出量が4倍増加[基準70→結果291]。Lewes Beachの刺傷が2024年の295件から2025年は1200件超と4倍に。君の言う通り、一般用法では「1倍増加」は変化なしを意味する。この曖昧さのせいで、こうした表現は使われなくなってきてるんだよ。普通くん
saga999
原文
You are correct that people use it the way you showed with those links. But those are incorrect usages. So if the discussion is about what do people mean, I won't say people mean this or what. But since the discussion is about what do those words mean, then I stand by what I said. Like you said, based on the common usage for "n-fold increase" means that a "1-fold increase" means no change. That's just absurd. If a "1-fold increase" means the same as "2-fold increase", it would be equally absurd. So that common usage is just wrong. But again, I do acknowledge that people do use it the way you showed. I'm arguing they are using it incorrectly. But I guess this is like "literally". "Literally" has been used incorrectly so often that it also took on the incorrect meaning.
お前の言う通り、実際にそう使われてるのは認めるわ。でもそれは間違った用法や。話が「みんなの意味」ならともかく、「言葉の意味」ならワイの主張は変わらん。1倍増が変化なしとか普通に考えておかしいやろ。2倍増と同じとかもっと意味不明や。要はよくある用法が単に間違いなんや。literallyみたいなもんで、誤用されまくって間違った意味まで定着したパターンやな。2ちゃん
RaptorJ
That's fair, people have all sorts of idiosyncratic opinions on what words and phrases should mean, but I wouldnt get to make the silly joke about sub translators without referring to the common dictionary definition of the phrase. inflammable means flammable? what a country!
それはそうだね、言葉の意味は人それぞれのこだわりがあるから。でも辞書の定義に触れないとサブ翻訳のネタができないんだよな。inflammableがflammableの意味?なんて国だ!普通くん
Ralathar44
原文
"fold" is understood to mean multiplication, a five-fold increase is a quintupling. "Increase" indicates direction. If my budget is $50 and I INCREASE my budget by $50 I now have a budget of $100. If my new budget is two fold my original $50 budget I now have a budget of $100. If I INCREASE my budget by two fold my original $50 budget I now have a budget of $150. The INCREASE is two fold, but the total is three fold.
「fold」は掛け算の意味やで、5倍増は5倍になるってことや。「増加」は方向を示しとる。予算が50ドルで、それを50ドル増やしたら予算は100ドルや。新しい予算が元の50ドルの2倍なら100ドルや。元の50ドルから2倍増やしたら150ドルになるんや。増加分が2倍で、合計は3倍ってわけや。2ちゃん
RaptorJ
I don't agree with your definition [0] [1] [2] . 1 : having three parts or members : triple a threefold purpose 2 : being three times as great or as many a threefold increase OTOH, it's hard to argue for/against definitions, and it's, to be fair, an ambiguous construction.
君の定義[0][1][2]には同意できないな。1:三つの部分や要素を持つこと、つまり三重の、三倍の目的。2:三倍の大きさや数であること、三倍の増加。一方で、定義に対して賛成・反対を論じるのは難しいし、公平に見れば、これは曖昧な構文だという考察ができる。考察くん
athrun_1
The world is ending because of these dark beasts, I think the math is the least of their problems.
世界が闇の獣で終わろうとしてるのに、数学とかどうでもいいでしょ!感情くん
AceSoldia
Man this shit is just turning up to 100. I can't believe Luna has developed so much..he's so cute. Omg. now we about to have two crazy battles..I don't know if Clevetass can handle a Dark Beast that beat the True Hero. What was up with that human society from before? Maybe they had evolved so much they just didn't care? Full of apathy? Maybe reached the pinnacle.
マジでテンション上がりまくってる。Lunaがこんなに成長するとは…可愛すぎる。omg。これから2つのヤバい戦いが始まる…Clevetassが真の勇者を倒したダークビーストに勝てるのか分からん。昔の人間社会って何だったんだ?進化しすぎて無関心になったのか?頂点に達してたのかもな。普通くん
mekerpan
Clevatess: How do you open that door? Luna: I pee on it. Clevates: {stunned look} Luna: Hee hee hee. I fibbed. Wow -- I never expected Baby Luna to become such a prankster. I think having Klen as sort of a foster father has been sort of a bad influence. 😉
クレバテス「その扉どうやって開ける?」ルナ「おしっこかけるの」クレバテス「(呆然)」ルナ「えへへ、ウソだよ」。ベビールナがまさかのいたずらっ子に…クレンという養父の影響かもな😉考察くん
AceSoldia
Lol I think all this development happen while they were at school....so this is the first time Klen talked to him...I bet Luna's personality comes from all this inherited knowledge he somehow has
wwwこの展開全部学校にいる間に起きたんだよね…だからKlenが彼と話すのは初めてなんだ…Lunaの性格は彼がなぜか受け継いだ知識から来てるに違いない、絶対そう感情くん
chemical_exe
Well, Luna did remember Clev's beast form
てかルナ、クレブの魔獣形態覚えてたじゃん!やばくね?ギャル
Mistral-Fien
I bet Luna's personality comes from all this inherited knowledge he somehow has Like a Kwisach Haderach? 😛
ルナの性格って、どっかから受け継いだ知識のせいだろ。まるでクイサッツ・ハデラックみたいな?😛普通くん
shad79
I knew that children grow up fast, but Luna 's development is truly shocking. After all, he's only 10 months old and he can even talk and joke already ?! It seems that Klen is a really good teacher, lol.
子供の成長は早いとは知ってたけど、Lunaの成長速度は正直衝撃だよな。まだ生後10ヶ月なのに、もう喋れて冗談まで言えるって?!Klenが相当いい先生ってことなんだろうな、笑。考察くん
SingaWong
Who would win: -A 8 tailed dog that uses shadows to his advantage -A big dragon boi
どっちが勝つ? - 影を武器にする8本尾の犬 - 大きなドラゴンのやつ普通くん
NoNameSwitzerland
The spectators.
観客どもやん2ちゃん
urokia
What was up with that human society from before? Maybe they had evolved so much they just didn't care? Wild theory, they were literally NPCs in video game.
前の人間社会って何だったんだ?進化しすぎて気にしなくなったのかもね。ぶっ飛んだ説だと、彼らはゲームのNPCだったとか。普通くん
dvdantunes
原文
I was thinking something similar since the end of the first season when it was revealed that the furnace was a book and maybe this was the retelling of a pre-written story, or a simulation of it with today's episode we have some kind of extra clues to add: - humanity world was destroyed and they were emontionless before. so maybe they were some sort of NPCs - Dark beasts apparently were "reborn" or at least they have new "versions". Vordin seems to still remember something, but not Clevatess - Alicia and the other students got a power up after succeeding in the first test. It felt like a law of that world, there's some "programmed" event that is triggered after finishing that test and gives you a power up. and power ups are something you earn in a videogame after a trial, specially JRPGs. I wouldn't be surprised if Alicia earns another power up after succeeding the second test if we go back to the first season, we don't know anything about the rest of the world, maybe it's because there's nothing at all, or that's the end of the "map". still they show us that it seems they live in a round planet (when Alicia is thrown to the atmosphere), but we don't have more information to theorize about it. Dark beasts seem to don't know anything either about the rest of the world, but they know they have to protect it from humans or anybody that wants to go through their domain maybe their world is some sort of simulation or "contained world" that came to an end (or some creator put to an end) and now we are watching a new iteration of it, with more improvements that the previous one. it seems to me like a JRPG too in fact, with all of this stuff of heroes, beasts, kingdoms, power ups, keys, doors, hidden rooms .... this could be just a bunch of nonsense for sure, but I like to theorize lol it edit: typos
1期終盤で炉が本って判明した時から似たこと考えてたわ。あれって既に書かれた物語の再話か、そのシミュレーションなんやろな。今回でヒント追加や: - 人類世界は滅びて感情もなかった→NPC説あるわ - 闇獣は「転生」してるっぽい。ヴォルディンは覚えてるがクレバテスは違う - アリシア達、1回目試験クリアでパワーアップ。世界の法則っぽい「プログラムされた」イベントやん。JRPGやん - 世界の外は不明。何もないか「マップの端」かも。丸い惑星ではあるっぽいが - 闇獣も外のことは知らんけど、領域を守る使命はある これ全部シミュレーションか「閉じた世界」で、今は改良版の新イテレーション見てる説。英雄・獣・王国・パワーアップ・鍵・扉…完全にJRPGやんけ 妄想だけどワイはこういう考察好きなんやwww 編集:誤字直した2ちゃん
mmcjawa_reborn
God I hope it doesn't fall back onto JRPG tropes. One of the reasons I enjoy Clevatess so much is that it manages to avoid the video game stuff that just pulls me out of the story every time.
まじでJRPGのテンプレに戻らないでほしいんだけど!クレバテス好きな理由の一つが、ゲームっぽい要素を避けてるからなんだよね。あれ毎回物語に集中できなくなるからさ〜ギャル
Gingingin100
The thing I love about Clevatess is how straight it plays jrpg tropes tbh
クレバテスがJRPGの王道をガチでそのままやってるのが好きなんだよな2ちゃん
VariousMeet
Good theory. The whole "doing the right steps to become a true hero" thing seems similar to Easter eggs in games as well.
いい理論だね。「真の勇者になるための正しい手順を踏む」ってやつは、ゲームのイースターエッグにも似てると思う。普通くん
Ambitious-Song2403
原文
It does feel like this is a video game world where the hero gets the bad end of losing to vordin first time and the universe just keeps on going. The teleportation doors feel extremely RPG. Plus the whole "open the world" thing people keep on talking about feels like it would be impossible if thats the case. When you beat the final boss in a video game you don't actually get to keep on playing. Have the feeling the outside world is just empty sky boxes.
これガチでゲーム世界やろ。勇者がヴォルディンに初見殺しされてバッドエンド迎えたのに世界は続行しとるし。転移扉とか完全にRPGやん。あと「世界を開く」とか言うてるけど、それやったら無理ゲーやろ。ラスボス倒したらゲーム続けられんやん。外の世界とか空のスカイボックスだけな気がするわ2ちゃん