Crafty-Pair2356 +466
スレ主投稿画像
IUsedToBeRasAlGhul
原文
A not insignificant amount of the complaints I’ve seen regarding Denji’s character arc and how the story has played it out come off to me as people not really wanting to accept that being Chainsaw Man is explicitly a bad thing for him, and how a huge part of why that was a bad thing for him is because it both robbed Denji of his ability to make choices and enabled Denji to avoid having to make any choices at all. Denji sobbing in front of the television at the end of Part 1 was just as much of a red flag as it was a moment of catharsis, and a lot of that had to do with what it represented for how he would be handling things going forward. The ending isn’t Denji being *denied* autonomy, it’s him finally having the chance to *develop any at all*, without the artificial and insurmountable road block of being Chainsaw Man.
デンジのキャラクターアークとストーリー展開への不満の多くは、「チェンソーマンであることがデンジにとって明らかに悪いこと」を受け入れたくない人たちの意見に感じる。そしてそれが悪いことだった大きな理由は…+192
jindrix
What a reader looks like
読者ってこんな感じ+26
Lazy_Seal_
原文
Seriously Denji has almost zero autonomy, like in part one even though his action can be silly, but at the end it is kind of smart and righteous (most of the time anyway). But in part 2 he is just reacting to a situation all the time, even when he give his blood to the dying War, it still make you question, is he doing it for the right reason? She is the reason why the world go to shit at that stage, why would he revive her without doing something like make her promise to stop first. And the problem with part 2 is not how he is being portrayed, but is it telling a good story with memorable characters, and most importantly does it give the MC opportunities to do the right thing in his own way.
マジでデンジほぼ自主性ゼロだよな。第一部では行動がアホっぽくても、結局はなんか賢くて正しいこと（だいたい）してたけど。第二部じゃいつも状況に流されてるだけ。瀕死の戦争の悪魔に血を分け与えた時でさえ、疑問が残る…+78
Plastic-Johnny-7490
原文
I think him being in that pathetic state for so long up until chapter 231 was why the ending felt cheap. Denji felt stagnant after dozens after dozens of chapters, and whenever it felt like the guy might've finally kickstarted a character arc due to some serious self-reflection (hell, we saw Denji tearfully apologized to a boy he carelessly abandoned, and in the next chapter, the dude **agreed to be sacrificed to be turned into a weapon just so he could right some of his wrongdoings**. Those chapters were some serious highlight because we saw Denji realizing his actions had consequences), it was immediately abandoned because Denji relapsed... again. So the matured Denji in the reboot world didn't feel cathartic because that wasn't a Denji learning from his mistakes and bettering himself. It felt like it was a result of Pochita **going to the character creation and altering everyone's stats**. In fact, it did feel like Pochita was able to pick and choose what to stay and what to go in the new universe. Power just conveniently showed up **at the exact moment and location** where Denji was to be executed. Nayuta appeared to be docile despite Kishibe warned against having the Control devil be raised by the unfeeling government. The forgotten horrors (like the Starlight that drove kids mad, AIDS, and Nazi devil...) that Pochita once banished, they would be terrorizing the mortal realm because Pochita wasn't there to devour them. And we now had a full powered War devil. Humanity gained multiple eldritch monsters while losing our strongest protector. The reboot world should've been a lot more chaotic, but it was weirdly friendly and helpful to Denji. Like the new world was crafted to be in Denji's favor. It felt artificial and convenient. Denji was lucky to have a magical dog who fixed everything for free. For all we know, Pochita was the God devil.
231話までずっとあの惨めな状態が続いてたから、エンディングが安っぽく感じたんだと思う。 何十話もデンジが停滞してて、深刻な自己反省からやっとキャラクターアークが始まるかと思ったら（実際、デンジが…+26
Artarara
Yeah, unlike Gojo, I did not have that much fun in Part 2. Well, at least in the later parts of it.
うん、五条悟と違って、第二部はあんまり楽しくなかった。 少なくとも後半はね。+11
generallySpiteful
My only hope for the ending was that he survived, because if we are alive, we can seek happiness. I consider the ending “better” than just surviving, because we know he has the potential to make bonds and be best friends with Power and Nayuta, and this time he won’t have PubSec up his ass over the chainsaw devil.
エンディングへの唯一の望みは彼が生き残ることだった。生きてさえいれば、幸せを探せるから。ただ生き残るより「良い」エンディングだと思う。だって彼にはパワーやナユタと絆を結び、親友になれる可能性があるって分かったから。今度は公安に監視されることもないし…+34
memer_cat_27
yeah, since he's no strong (no chainsaw hybrid) he'd be able to live devil hunter normal life cuz if was strong with powerful contracts he'll be dragged into strong for fights, ofc he'll die since most devil hunter don't live long unlike kishibe but he honest he's strongest devil hunter with multiple skills and contracts Denji being chainsaw man was an ahh His greed and his lust had consumed him
そうだね、もう強くない（チェンソーマンハイブリッドじゃない）から、普通の悪魔狩りの生活が送れる。強力な契約で強かったら、強敵との戦いに引きずり込まれてた。岸辺みたいな長生きする悪魔狩りは稀だし、普通なら死ぬだろうけど、正直彼は複数の…+7
generallySpiteful
原文
I think he did have greed and lust, but he also never really had family to teach him moderation, and things like that. All he understood was pain, and trying to seek comforts to distract from it. Hell, he would even saw his own brain when he got emotionally distressed. I think Pochita leaving helps him grow for 2 reasons, because not only will he have to work to gain happiness in life, but also I think Pochita could tell Makima, Barem, and the rest of PS were ruining his life, and as sad as it was for Pochita, he probably felt he had to leave to save him
彼にも欲や欲望はあったと思うけど、それを節度を教えてくれる家族がいなかったんだ。彼が理解してたのは痛みと、それから逃れるための快楽だけ。精神的に参ると自分の脳みそを挽いちゃうくらいだったし。ポチタが去ったのは…+8
memer_cat_27
Even if part 3 comes, denji wouldn't be main character Like in part 2 asa was main character Yoru was main villian
第三部が来たとしても、デンジは主人公じゃないと思う 第二部でアサが主人公だったみたいに ヨルがメインヴィランだったし+6
TheMooRam
>ofc he'll die since most devil hunter don't live long unlike kishibe I almost feel like if anyone was going to survive in the devil hunting game as long as Kishibe it might be Denji tbf. Kishibe always thought Denji was the most suited for the job after all
>普通なら死ぬだろうけど、岸辺みたいな長生きする悪魔狩りは稀だし むしろ岸辺みたいに悪魔狩りの世界で長生きする可能性があるとしたら、デンジかもね。岸辺自身がデンジが最もこの仕事に向いてるって思ってたし+3
memer_cat_27
because he had no family to care about or regret like "Ah i think I'm going to die, I've lived Long after all, sorry riko i wasn't able to play with you, i wonder what'll Happan to her if i die I wish I had another chance so i could _____"
だって彼には「ああ、もう死ぬか。十分生きたし。ごめんねリコ、一緒に遊べなかった。俺が死んだらあの子どうなるんだろう。もう一度チャンスがほしい、そうすれば_____できるのに」って心配したり後悔したりする家族がいなかったから+2
Gold-Bard-Hue
原文
I understood the ending quite perfectly. Fujimoto was tired of doing Chainsaw Man. The deadlines, the fan pressure, and burnout. He was being crushed by the weight of the whole thing and people's expectations from Part 1 that he knew trying to top that in part 2 was no easy feat. He had a strong start, but clearly had no real ending in mind. Perhaps he wanted Asa/Yoru to complete their arc together by defeating Chainsaw Man and the world ending. We'll probably never know. At some point he realized that or at least *believed* about himself that the fans would be let down and pissed at him no matter what. If my interactions with this Fandom in recent years are any indicator, he was 100% correct. So he decided to just end it on his own terms. To just do the biggest cop-out ending imaginable. But at least it's done. He can move on to something else. In that way, I'm happy for him.
エンディングは完璧に理解できた。 藤本タツキはチェンソーマンを描くのに疲れたんだ。 締切、ファンのプレッシャー、バーンアウト。 全ての重みと第一部からの人々の期待に押しつぶされて、第二部でそれを超えようとするのは簡単じゃないと分かってた。彼には…+27
neuronez
I’m still amazed at the sheer volume of word count overthinking and second-guessing the ending and the second part in general. To me it’s more plausible to accept that Fujimoto was just going through the motions and pushing the story forward without a plan or overarching narrative. The fact that he chose the laziest way to end a story (it was all a dream) is very revealing.
未だにエンディングや第二部全体について、これほど大量に考えすぎたり後出しジャンケンしたりする言葉の数に驚く。 藤本がただ惰性で、計画も大きな筋書きもなくストーリーを進めてたって受け入れる方が、よっぽど納得がいく。 実際…+20
Gold-Bard-Hue
That's a pretty good summation of what I was saying. He was burned out and just wanted it over with. It's very simple, and likely correct.
俺が言ってたことの良い要約だな。彼は燃え尽きて、ただ終わらせたかっただけ。シンプルで、たぶん正解。+14
Practical_Quit_3248
Reddit投稿画像
I like the idea of him being addicted to CSM title and fame and how it’s ruining his life, but fucking hate how it’s portrayed in church arc. There is a big difference between character doing mistakes and failing because of his selfishness and when plot just makes the most fucking stupid things just to fuck him up
デンジがチェンソーマンの肩書と名声に依存し、それが彼の人生を壊してるってアイデアは好きだけど、教会編での描かれ方はマジでクソ。キャラが自分のわがままで失敗するのと、プロットがただめちゃくちゃアホなこと起こして…+17
Natural_Reporter2818
So let's change history to literally erase said trauma, instead of working it through properly like people does, like it's your only option irl. Anything but paying off complex psychology stuff that I don't know how to write, so, only naturally, the reader would go "why tf did he even get himself into this dilemma to begin with?"
じゃあ歴史を変えてそのトラウマを文字通り消し去ろう。現実で唯一の選択肢であるかのように、人が普通にやるように、きちんと向き合って乗り越えるんじゃなくて。 複雑な心理描写を（書き方が分からないから）ちゃんと回収するんじゃなくて、そりゃ読者は「なんでわざわざそんな状況に…」ってなるわ。+8
Mr_1ightning
Tbf, Denji only kept living because he's immortal, any normal person would die or kill themselves in his shoes. It's kinda impossible to write a character like that convincingly, Agni only worked because he was a clear allegory not to be taken straight.
公平に言うと、デンジが生き続けられたのは不死身だからだよ。普通の人なら彼の立場なら死ぬか自殺してる。 そんなキャラを説得力持って描くのはほぼ不可能。アグニが成立したのは、明確な寓意であって直球に受け取るキャラじゃなかったからだ。+3
No-Bison-6614
So is Evangelion 3.0+1.0 also a cop-out to you? The Last Battle (Chronicles of Narnia)?
じゃあ『エヴァンゲリオン:||』も君にとってはごまかしなの？『さいごの戦い』（ナルニア国物語）も？ ※『さいごの戦い』は『ナルニア国物語 第7巻 さいごの戦い』の英題 "The Last Battle" を指す。海外ファンコミュニティでは、本作の結末が議論になることがある。+1
Natural_Reporter2818
原文
Dunno, haven't watched either. But the conclusion of original Eva (25, 26 and EoE) was an unfairly outstanding anti-example of this, and did prove that Anno wasn't building up things he never thought how would he ultimately resolve. Shinji went from the lowest "I only got bad things from the world, so everyone should die; and I've only done bad things to the world, so I should die too" to understanding that human differences not only cause pain, but also differentiates one's self from the others; nobody can understand him because only he is himself, and because of that he should be gentle with himself; perception holds a strong influence on the way we experience, often assuming correlations that do not necessarily fit reality, and which after taking the shot to go through the process of thinking about them instead of blocking, those beliefs turn clearer to see as false. Everything through step by step process. I didn't expect this from Fuji, I just wish that instead of giving us one big solution for one conflict and it nullifies all the rest, he would have had the intention to atleast try and give a resolution to most of the conflicts he himself kept bringing up time and time again.
知らん、どっちも見てない。でも旧エヴァの結末（25、26話とEOE）は、この手のごまかしに対する比類なき傑出したアンチ例だった。庵野がどう解決するか考えずに伏線を張りまくってたわけじゃないことを証明してた。 シンジは最低の「世界から悪いことしか受け取ってない、だから世界を壊す」状態から…+1
SirArchibaldMapsALot
原文
I would agree with you, if this had gone somewhere, anywhere. Instead, we're hit with a reset button and all of the journey meant nothing. We can discuss ad nauseum about how his progression makes sense, but that all was rendered inconsequential, because it simply never happened. My point is, Fujimoto had the skeleton of something really good with his character work with Denji, but then got bored and simply abandoned it for a quick exit of the mess he himself had written, at the cost of 230 chapters of build up. And that for me just kills any appreciation i might had about the what we got
もしこれが何かしらの結末にたどり着いてたなら同意するよ。でも代わりにリセットボタンが押されて、今までの旅は全部無意味になっちゃった。彼の成長が理にかなってるって議論は延々できるけど、結局全部無意味だよ。だって、ただの「起こらなかったこと」なんだから。言いたいのは、フジ+9
Lusty-Jove
I mean it goes somewhere, because Pochita breaks the cycle by removing CSM
いや、結末はあるよ。ポチタがCSMを消すことでその循環を断ち切ったんだから※CSM: この文脈では「チェンソーマン」を指す略称として使用されています。+1
デンジの苦悩と成長の物語は、読者によって「深い心理描写」とも「都合の良いリセット」とも評価が分かれる、議論を呼ぶ結末を迎えました。