Coprinus_comatus010 +1853
QuintanimousGooch
原文
I think the point is that elf culture isn’t monolithic in the way classic fantasy has very pale, often blond elves as “good ones” and darker skinned elves as “the bad ones” but rather to demonstrate a variety of skin tones as Elf culture ranging this variety, the current elf queen being one of these ebony-skinned elves. Basically I think it’s a design choice not to box in elves to having very European characteristics, but rather to clarify that as a race, elves are more identified by their androgynous presentations and then just have a variety of skin tones, much like how Kabru, Kiki&Kaka, Laios and Rinsha are all Tallmen with differient skintones
エルフ文化って単一じゃなくて、クラシックファンタジーみたいに「白くて金髪=善」「黒っぽい肌=悪」って分けるんじゃなくて、肌色も多様性があって、今のエルフ女王もその一部ってことだと思うわ
+1509
Nicklesnout
原文
They’re very much akin to Old Norse taken at face value, where there’s the Svartalfar, ljósalfar, and Dǫkkalfar for Swarthy, Light, and Dark. Even if the meanings of the words are open to interpretation to this day. It was highly refreshing seeing them used as expressions of something like ethnicity and not allegiance or divine influence like the Lolthsworn Drow in Gygax’s D&D, or the Wood Elves of Tolkien.
これ、古ノルドのスヴァルトアールヴ、リョースアールヴ、ドッカルヴ(浅黒い、明るい、暗い)をそのまま受け取った感じに近いね。言葉の意味は今でも解釈が分かれるけどさ。こういうのを民族的な表現として使ってるの見るの、超新鮮だった
+369
AnkhAnanku
That is very much debunked within the text of Dungeon Meshi itself. These are exonyms based on human ignorance and presupposition. Some human tribe had two interactions with elves and decided all elves should be put into one of two categories.
それ、ダンジョン飯の作中で完全に否定されてるよ。これらは人間の無知と先入観に基づく他称なんだ。ある人間の部族がエルフと2回やり取りしただけで、エルフは全部2つのカテゴリのどっちかに入るって決めつけただけ
+68
Nicklesnout
I’m presuming that’s what Kui’s inspiration was. Not how the Tall-Men labeled them. Trolls likewise as far as I remember was a term for the Tall-Men by Half-Foots. To your point though, I did find that little tidbit highly amusing because it shows that despite their willingness to cooperate each of the races had a pejorative for one another, which makes their world feel more lived in.
多分九井先生のインスピレーションはそこからだと思う。背高人間がどう呼んだかじゃなくて。トロールも、確か記憶が正しければ、半足人から見た背高人間の呼称だったはず。でも確かに、その小ネタは超面白かったな。協力はするけど、それぞれが…
+43
Throwaway02062004
Skin colour irl and for tall men in Dungeon Meshi indicates your ancestry. Is the same true for elves or is just variation in a single group? Edit: Seems like just mutation in a population, possibly recessive.
現実世界の肌色やダンジョン飯の背高人間の場合、それは祖先を示してるよね。エルフも同じ?それとも単一の集団内でのバリエーション? 編集:集団内の突然変異っぽいね、多分劣性遺伝子だ
+49
vastozopilord777
IIRC, yes is a recessive gene, going by Flamela >!and her twin's!< backstory
確かそうだよ、劣性遺伝子。フラメラ>!とその双子の!<バックストーリーからすると
+26
verygenericname2
Could even be cosmetic. Kinda reminds me of the tooth blackening that was popular with Japanese aristocracy, albeit on a grander scale. A striking appearance that could immediately communicate one's social status.
化粧の可能性すらあるよね。日本の貴族に流行ったお歯黒を思い出すわ、もっと大規模なスケールだけど。社会的地位を一発で伝えられる目立つ外見ってことだ
+22
Throwaway02062004
Nah, they’re born with it looking at this thread. Sign of royalty in their culture.
いや、生まれつきだよ、このスレ見る限り。彼らの文化では王家の証なんだ
+29
qishibe
I notice in alot of fantasy, there are brown skinned elves and black elves but also sometimes pitch black variations
ファンタジー作品だと、褐色肌や黒いエルフ、時には真っ黒なバリエーションもいるよね
+3
ironwolf1
原文
The in-universe conceit about the black-skinned, silver-haired, red-eyed elves is that it’s a rare genetic trait that is seen in Elf culture as a portent of royalty. The Queen of the Western Elves has these features, and Flamela joined the Canaries to avoid getting pulled into royal politics because none of the Queen’s direct relatives have those features and the Queen had previously adopted Flamela’s sister, who was killed as a result of court intrigue. Seems like it’s a sort of reverse albinism thing. Edit: as per the fairies, fairies take on the appearance of the mage that cares for them. The queen’s fairy and Mithrun’s fairy don’t look like them because they both have attendants that care for their fairies for them.
黒い肌に銀髪、赤い目を持つエルフの設定は、エルフ文化において王家の兆しとされる珍しい遺伝形質なんだ。西方エルフの女王がこの特徴を持っていて、フラメラは王家の政治に巻き込まれるのを避けるためにカナリアに入ったんだよ
+684
Coprinus_comatus010
Ohh that's sick! I was wondering if there was a genuine in-universe explanation or if it was simply a design choice
おお、それやばい!単なるデザイン選択なのか、ちゃんとした世界観の説明があるのか気になってたんだ
+161
ironwolf1
Ryoko Kui is rather excellent at worldbuilding, there's in-universe cultural explanations for pretty much everything in the story.
九井諒子先生は世界構築が超上手いから、物語のほぼ全てに世界観内での文化的説明があるんだよ
+133
Boppinzlewinski
I thought they were referencing drow bc thats the only explanation that makes sense to me imo
ドロウのオマージュかと思ったわ、そっちの方が自分にはしっくりくるから
+3
ironwolf1
The explanation I detailed here is laid out in full in the Adventurer's Bible. Highly recommend it if you haven't had the chance to read it.
ここで詳しく説明した内容は、冒険者バイブルに全部載ってるよ。まだ読んでないなら超おすすめ
+40
LYKILLOFASGARD
This. I knew I remembered the Adventurer's Bible saying something like this about it.
それ。冒険者バイブルにそんなこと書いてあったの覚えてた
+37
dragondraems42
The term for 'mutation that causes a darker coloration than is normal for the species' is melanism. According to wikipedia, humans don't have melanism in the ways that foxes or squirrels do, but is that the same for elves? idk
「種として通常より暗い体色をもたらす突然変異」の用語は黒化(メラニズム)だ。ウィキペディアによると、人間は狐やリスみたいな形での黒化はないらしいけど、エルフは同じなのかな?わからん
+29
ironwolf1
原文
It’s not *just* melanism though. I compared it to albinism because like albinism, it also affects the hair color and eye color. If I had to guess, it’s probably Demon related, since there was a lot of genetic fuckery that occurred with the demon before the ancient civilization fell. It’s already explicitly stated that the Demon is responsible for the current differences in lifespan between the human races.
ただの黒化じゃないと思う。アルビノと比較したのは、アルビノみたいに髪や目の色にも影響するから。推測するに、多分デーモン関連だと思う。古代文明が滅びる前、デーモンでかなりの遺伝子いじりが起きてるし。それに既に…
+35
dragondraems42
I would totally believe that its demon related, but we should also acknowledge the possibility it's just a regular recessive trait in elves that's more common in royalty due to all the inbreeding. It's obviously not melanism outright, I just wanted to share a phenomenon that's closer to canon than albinism.
デーモン関連ってのはマジであり得ると思う。でも、単にエルフの普通の劣性形質で、近親交配の多い王家でより一般的になってる可能性も認めるべきかも。明らかに単純な黒化じゃないけど、ただ、オマージュとかよりは正典に近い現象を共有したかっただけ
+15
BlockBuilder408
Its worth pointing out that there’s famous models with near onyx black skin irl I think there’s likely both inspiration pulled from such models and fantasy dark elves in the Queen’s design
現実世界にもオニキスみたいに真っ黒な肌の有名モデルがいるって指摘は価値あるね。女王のデザインには、そういうモデルとファンタジーのダークエルフの両方からインスピレーション得てると思う
+8
Miss_Nomer909
Reddit投稿画像
原文
There's this that kind of expands on it. It is also noted that several of the elves like Mithrun have naturally silver hair from birth though the queen and Flamela seem to have a lighter silver which may be more rare. Mithrun also has silver eyes and it's known to be a trait of his noble family line is known for. The elf that made the queen's fairy also seems to have red eyes and light silver hair too. Considering that Flamela parents didn't have black skin and she and her sister were seen as special it probably that black skin is a recessive gene It could be like being a albino since the ones with obsidian colored skin elves all seem to have red eyes and silver hair and it's linked with relatives.
これ、ちょっと補足になるかも。image ミスランみたいに生まれつき銀髪のエルフも複数いるけど、女王やフラメラの場合は…とも書かれてるね
+267
tinurin
I love Flamela‘s backstory. I know she‘s a minor character and pretty unhelpful, but her background is so interesting and really offers some depth to her rage-fueled,arrogant attitude.
フレイメラのバックストーリー、マジで好き。マイナーキャラで役立たずだけど、彼女の背景めっちゃ面白くて、あの怒りに満ちた高飛車な態度にも深みが出るんだよな。
+91
carbonera99
She’d be the protagonist in any other story. Self-exiled Elf princess with a dead twin sister and an axe to grind against the monarchy? That’s strong material.
他の作品なら主人公級だわ。亡き双子の姉妹持ちで王政にケンカ売るエルフの亡命王女?そりゃ素材として強いわ。
+76
sanctaphrax
This story has a lot of non-protagonist protagonists. Kabru, Toshiro, and Mithrun come to mind.
この作品、主人公じゃない主人公みたいなキャラ多いよな。カブル、トシロウ、ミスランとか。
+59
tinurin
Agreed! She‘s flawed but understandably so. She would be a great protagonist for another story. Or an unhinged antagonist with a compelling, sympathetic backstory. I wonder what would‘ve happened had she >!encountered the demon. Revenge is a strong desire after all!<. I also wonder what would happen if the queen actually died without another heir. So much potential there…
同感!欠点はあっても納得できるし。 別作品の主人公として最高だわ。あるいは、共感できるバックストーリー持った狂った敵役としてもね。 もし彼女が>!悪魔に出会ってたらどうなってたんだろ?復讐心は強い欲求だし!<。あと、どうなってたか気になるわ。
+8
Schmooto
This should be the top comment.
これが一番上に来るべきコメントだわ。
+13
sporkmaster5000
原文
>It is also noted that several of the elves like Mithrun have naturally silver hair from birth The fact that most elves, including dark skinned ones, have fair hair makes me feel like the half-elf protag of marcille's favorite series who has black hair is the elven equivalent of some silver haired anime protag, which is super on brand for her. I don't think any elves in the series are depicted with even brown hair.
>ミスランを含め、何人かのエルフは生まれつき銀髪とされている 肌の色が黒いエルフも含め、ほとんどのエルフの髪が淡い色ってことは、マルシルの推しシリーズの黒髪ハーフエルフ主人公って、エルフ界の銀髪みたいなもんじゃね?
+11
Onsvaltti-heck
Mithrun's eyes turned black since the... Incident. And that is also rare color for elf to have, according to Kabru when he first meets Mithrun 🧐
ミスランの目が黒くなったのは…あの事件から。それもエルフには珍しい色らしい、カブルが初めて会った時に言ってた🧐
+9
Head_Breadfruit_3912
Looks cool is my guess, like how in WH40K the salamander marines are charcoal black
カッコいいからじゃね?WH40Kでサラマンダーが炭みたいに黒いのと同じ感じで。
+110
Taoutes
That is solely due to their melanchrome being mutated. Pre-Vulkan Salamaders were normal coloration. **All** Space Marines can turn jet black if exposed to enough radiation for long enough, but their melanchrome + Nocturne's radiation means they don't revert back after leaving exposure areas like normal marines
あれはメラノクロームの突然変異が原因。ヴァルカン以前のサラマンダーは普通の色だった。**全ての**スペースマリーンは、十分な放射線に長く晒されれば真っ黒になるけど、彼らのメラノクローム+ノクターンの放射線のせいで、被曝地を離れても元に戻らないんだよ。
+22
Luke5353
Same reason as when characters have pure white skin, looks cool, also makes for great contrast when you're printing in gradients of black and white
キャラが真っ白い肌してるのと同じ理由だわ、カッコいいし、白黒のグラデーションで印刷する時のコントラストも最高だし。
+80
FlorianoAguirre
Other races are allowed diversity too. They were born black, it does matter to the world as their black skin is related to royalty.
他の種族にも多様性はあるんだよ。生まれつきの黒い肌で、それが王族に関わるから世界観的に重要なんだ。
+44
Apoordm
Probably based on dnd dark elves?
多分DnDのダークエルフが元ネタ?
+40
PoppyBroSenior
原文
It actually is because some elves have pure black skin and the fairies they create inherit their creators skin tone. The pure black skin is part of the elven royal lineage. However, blood is a powerful item for spellcasting. Since fairies inherit qualities from their creators, their blood can be used as a substitute for the others blood. People of high importance will use fairies made by other people to prevent their own blood from falling into the wrong hands.
実際のところ、一部のエルフは真っ黒な肌をしていて、彼らが作る妖精は創造主の肌色を受け継ぐんだ。その真っ黒な肌はエルフの王族の血筋の一部なのさ。 ただ、血は強力な魔法の触媒だ。妖精は創造主の特性を受け継ぐから、彼らの血は使える…
+20
Succubuss_Smasher
I think Dungeon Meshi did a great job with the Elven Race. Also, I did notice that some of the Oldest elves do behave oddly, like brain degeneration. Makes sense since they are still living things, and no matter what, organic Systems do reach breaking Points. Like Lobsters.
ダンジョン飯のエルフ種族の描写は最高だと思う。 あと、最古参のエルフの中には、脳の退化みたいに挙動がおかしい奴らがいるのにも気づいた。生き物だし、どんな有機システムにも限界が来るって考えると納得だわ。 ロブスターみたいに。
+21
Ok_Assignment5643
The little rat will always lose. That just shows you whose side god is really on
チビネズミは絶対勝てねーよ。 それって神がどっち側に付いてるかよくわかるわな。
+5
King_Koragar
They explain in one of the backstories iirc that the onyx-skinned Elves are considered to have noble blood. It's a genetic anomaly considered indicative of royalty is my interpretation of it. The Elf Queen also has black skin.
確かバックストーリーの一つで説明されてたけど、オニキス肌のエルフは高貴な血筋と見なされてる。遺伝的な変異で、王族の証って解釈してるわ。エルフの女王も黒い肌だし。
+10
Conscious-Degree-473
Well, there are other POC elves that are actually toned in ways normal POC folk are... I think its just to give them some dope ass looks or something, I personally think its totally disco.
まあ、実際の有色人種みたいな肌色のエルフもいるし…単にカッコいい見た目にするためなんじゃね?個人的には超イケてると思うけど。
+10
Katahahime
原文
In universe lore wise, it is just another phenotype that elves exhibit. It seems to be correlated to their royal family with some stuff in the adventurers bible describing how there was a succession issue because an heir didn't look a certain way. Not too much is expanded upon this but it seems like there isn't different in treatment (except for some possible respect because of their ties to the royal family). Out of universe, Ryoko Kui is heavily inspired by table top RPGs, with one of her biggest being the Wizardry Rpg/DRPG as well as a consumer of a lot of fantasy stuff like Pathfinder, Baldurs Gate. Elves with "non-human" skin tones like Jet black, blue...ect skin is their own thing and not analogous to our own world's ethnicities.
作中の設定では、エルフに現れるただの表現型の一つだよ。王族と関連があるみたいで、冒険者バイブルには、後継者が特定の見た目じゃないせいで継承問題が起きたって書かれてた。詳しくは掘り下げられてないけど、どうやら…
+10
WaifuM8erial
I always read them as similar to dark elves in dnd lore
俺はずっとDnDのダークエルフみたいなもんだと思って読んでた。
+9
Shilques
They're 100% not drows, they're part of the general elven culture not a separated group It's even explained that "dark elves" in the sense of specific ethnicity of evil elves don't exist in the setting
彼らは100%ドロウじゃないよ。分離した種族じゃなくて、エルフ文化の一部なんだ。 この世界観では、特定の邪悪なエルフの民族としての「ダークエルフ」は存在しないって説明すらされてる。
+16
OpeningRandomDoors
Author likes both normal and dark elves in fantasy. Also, when making manga in black and white, pure black is something you will probably use.
作者はファンタジーで普通のエルフもダークエルフも好きなんだな。 それと、漫画を白黒で描くとき、真っ黒ってたぶん使うよね。
+8
Dillo64
>There are numerous poc/darkskinned characters like Kabru, Kaka, & Kiki Why all they names start with K /s
>カブル、カカ、キキみたいな肌の黒いキャラはたくさんいる なんでみんな名前がKで始まるんだよ gif /冗談
+9
arineko
原文
I'ts one of the most popular interpretations on dark elves, a very common subspecies of elves in fantasy... ...which is based on norse folklore, where they are called either svartalfar (literally black elves) and/or dokkalfar (dark elves). Because of a serious case of lack of conserved written literature on the topic and christian-hijacked posterior literature, we in fact can't be sure if those were two words for the same species of elf, separate species of elves, or if svartafar were in fact dwarves. Because "alfar", the word from where "elf" is derived, actually means just "white". Which has lead to theories that these suposed "elves" where called that because all of them had white hair, but again, no proper way of knowing because lack of reliable sources
これはダークエルフの最もポピュラーな解釈の一つで、ファンタジーでは超一般的な亜種なんだよね… …元は北欧の民間伝承で、スヴァルトアールヴァル(文字通り黒いエルフ)とかドッカルヴァル(暗いエルフ)って呼ばれてた。文献がちゃんと残ってないから、はっきりしないんだけどさ。
+8
Nachooolo
Probably a direct reference to the drow from DnD. Besides that, there's only two jet black elves in the story, so it lini them up even if the story itself doesn't say putright that they are related.
多分DnDのドロウを直接参照してる。それ以外だと、この物語で漆黒のエルフは二人しかいないから、話中で直接は言わなくても、それで二人が関連してると示してるんだと思う。
+8
HoldenOrihara
I believe it's how she envisions drow/dark elves
作者が思い描くドロウ/ダークエルフって感じなんじゃないかな
+8
BelligerentWyvern
原文
It's not meant to be indicative of race like we think it. They have variable skin color like Tallmen. Iirc every one in awhile elves are spontaneously born with coal black skin like we see with Queen of the Elves and it's seen as a prestigious thing. Like actually spontaneously, like one in a set of twins has the parent's skin tone and the other coal black. I can't find the reference where I saw this though. Maybe I'm crossing wires with something else like Unicorn Overlord.
我々が考えるような人種を示す意味じゃないんだ。トールメンみたいに肌の色はバラバラなんだよ。 確か、たまにエルフの中にはエルフの女王みたいに真っ黒な肌で自然発生するやつがいて、それはすごく名誉なこととされてる。ほんとに自然にだよ、例えば一卵性双生児の片方だけがみたいな。
+7
Vix_super_adorable
Isn’t that black crystal skin is considered royalty? The bloodline something.
あの黒水晶みたいな肌って王族ってことじゃないの?血筋とか。
+5
Onsvaltti-heck
Yes 🙌🏻 the queen is black skinned, the other character is her relative ir something, and other wlves wanted her to be the next in line for queen, because of her "royal" skin.
そうだよ🙌🏻 女王は黒い肌で、もう一人のキャラはその親戚か何かで、他のエルフは彼女を次の女王にしたがってた、「王族の」肌だからね。
+4
BP080808
Its revitiligo
逆ヴィティリゴやん gif
+7
Unorthedox_Doggie117
Reddit投稿画像
This is an extra panel that explains it. It's more of a genetic trait. A coincidental one that tends to show up in those of 'royal lineage'.
これがそれを説明する追加ページだ。どっちかって言うと遺伝形質なんだ。『王族の血筋』に現れがちな、偶然のね。 image
+6
Doktor_Jones86
Reddit投稿画像
Dude Drow. It's not a new concept.
お前… ドロウだよ。 別に新しい概念じゃねーぞ。 image
+5
DarthJackie2021
You can't just ask somebody that?! /s Looks cool.
そんなこと人に聞いていいのかよ!? /冗談 かっこいいけどな。
+5
icecrystalmaniac
原文
I’m Swedish and the answer is yes but let me yap for a bit. “elves” in folklore is somewhat strange. This type of elves kinda don’t exist but also kinda do. The word for “elf”(alv) and “fairy”(älva) is / was the same in Swedish until we needed a word for Tolkiens elves and one of Icelandic words for “fairy” was chosen which is also close to the old name for fairy. That said the idea a fairy was slightly different here than the typical little person with wings being feminine or gender neutral humanoid creatures that’d dance at dawn and dusk. They are never alone and non are named. Even today when you see the type of mist that sometimes drift over fields especially in fall you can say “look the fairies are dancing over the fields”. Depending on texts elves are described as nature spirit or even gods. There are two families/ type of gods in Norse mythology Asarna who are the main gods of civilization(Thor, Odin and so on). Then there where the Vaner who where more so gods of nature and fertility (only three gods are said to be Vaner and they where taken as hostages / wards after a war between the Vaner and Asarna; Njord, Frey and Freya (father and twin children). They come from a different world on the world tree from humans and the other gods and are heavily associated with elves. They could even be synonymous in some contexts. Frey especially lives in Alfheim (translates to “the elves land/home”). Snorri Sturluson (who was Christian which is worth noting especially when talking his description of elves) did describe elves like this: “there are light elves that live in heaven and dark elves that lives down in the earth and are blacker than pitch”. Later it appears he may mean the same thing when saying dark elves and dwarfs and also he uses “Asar and elves” to potentially say “all gods”. TLDR: Snorri Sturluson described elves as “there are light elves that live in heaven and dark elves that lives down in the earth and are blacker than pitch”. https://preview.redd
スウェーデン人だけど答えはイエス、でもちょっと語らせて。「エルフ」って民間伝承だとちょっと変なんだ。このタイプのエルフは、いないけど、いるみたいな。スウェーデン語で「エルフ」(alv)と「妖精」(älva)の単語は、トールキンのエルフ用の単語が必要になるまで同じだった/同じで、アイスランド語の単語の一つが…
+5
ESCAPEDPARROT
Pretty sure it’s supposed to be like dark elves
ダークエルフみたいな感じを意図してるんだと確信してる
+2
海外ファンは、九井諒子氏の緻密な世界構築と、エルフの多様性を単純な善悪の二元論に落とし込まない描写を高く評価していました。